Dave Brubeck Quartet - "Time Out" - Original Mix on CD Question

I sure hope Mark Wilder is still here with us, specially because I'm extremely interested to learn why these two remasters for the same music, made by Mark, look so different, and it looks to me there is quite less dynamic range (or crest level) on the Legacy CD:

Columbia Legacy Bitches Brew:




Sony Japan DSD 2006:




I believe Mark remastered the Columbia legacy CD, is that correct?

These are the remastering credits on the 2006 DSD CD:

Pr: Bob Belden / Michael Cuscuna - Rm: Mark Wilder - Proj.Dir. Seth Rothenstein

If this is all correct, I'd really like to get some answers... Is the Legacy CD compressed? If not, what caused the obvious loss of dynamic range (or crest level as you prefer) when compared to the more recent DSD transfer? What about EQ? The Legacy sounds much louder, brighter, and "in your face"... the horn is much more sibilant and screeches a lot on the Legacy CD, when compared to the DSD CD.

In my case, the Legacy makes my head hurt in about 3 or 4 minutes. The DSD CD sounds glorious and gives me real sonic pleasure

I'm really curious about this, for me it's a very clear example of the (wrong) way some, or many Legacy CD's were made... And clearly, they could have been done better, like the latest Mark Wilder work for the same music has demonstrated.

 

I would not assume that we scared him off. He joined the forum in 2005 and has only logged a few posts. I'm sure he is busy and just doesn't have the time to post often.

 

My friend, you need to reread many of these posts. You're asking the same questions repeatedly, and the answers are already there. You also need to understand the difference between compression and loudness.

Turn on your FM radio. Tune it to a Top 40 station. Listen for 10 minutes. Are your ears tired? That's because radio is severely compressed (limited) and all the instruments, voices, commercials, etc. are at the same level, regardless of the EQ. Now turn the volume down really low. Everything is still there at the same level. If you record it into your computer and graph it, you'll see a flat rectangle.

The graphs you show are nowhere near flatlined rectangles. There are loud spots and soft spots (like around the 8:00 mark). If this was compressed as much as you think it is, that spot would be up near the surrounding louder sections. One CD is louder than the other, and the EQs might be different, but the wide dyanmic ranges are still there. And that's the ONLY thing those graphs can tell you.

I'll venture a guess that it's the EQ that bothers you, not the compression that wasn't used.

 

I don't know how to answer to your comments. I can't believe you are looking at the same waveforms or listening to the same discs.

If you seriously look at those waveforms, and listen to those discs, and you think the Bitches Brew Legacy CD has the same dynamic range as the DSD CD, and the only difference between them is Loudness and EQ, then my friend, I think you need to reread a lot of posts, from this and many other topics.

Are you serious when you say compressed music must have flat lined rectangles? You do understand that it is possible to apply different ammounts of compression and with different techniques, right?

And... isn't it absolutely clear, just by looking at the waveforms I posted, that the Legacy CD has a very reduced "crest level", with very much reduced peaks in relation to the average loudness? I mean... it's right there. And if you play the discs, it's even more obvious...

Hey, guys... please let me know... am I the only one who thinks the Legacy Bitches Brew CD is not as well mastered as the DSD CD?

 

Sergio RZ, the Legacy CD looks to have been Maximized. The quieter parts were brought up closer to the louder parts. This wasn't compression, it was a maximizer, and yes, dynamic range was lost.

Frank R.

 

That is not what I said. And yes, I do understand the concept of applying different amounts of compression. I was describing an extreme form of it, since you seem to have had some difficulty in hearing what compression really sounds like. (Your post #109). No, it doesn't have to be flatlined.

Yes. And...? This was explained before.

With respect, sir, that is your opinion, not a quantifiable fact proved by a waveform. I have not heard the Bitches Brew DSD, so I have no opinion on it. Bitches Brew was recorded like a rock record of the time, according to Miles. So IMHO, "reduced crest levels" and "average loudness" mean nothing to me as long as it sounds great and kicks @$$. And I would trust Mark Wilder more than most other engineers to get it right and stay true to the artistic intent of the album. If you don't happen to like it, that's cool too.

 

No, that's exactly what compression is.

 

You assume too much. What gives you the right, based on subjective information, to assume I have trouble hearing what compression sounds like? Has it occurred to you that it's not easy to communicate such things online and it's very easy that people tend to talk about different things and fail to make each other understand what is being said?

I can identify compression, or at least the lack of dynamic range, from a mile away... Please, don't assume facts you simply don't have a way to know.

What are you talking about? I said the Legacy CD has reduced dynamic range. And you said no, it's just louder and EQ'ed... Isn't that true? You didn't explain anything, you simply failed to admit there is less dynamic range in the Lecagy CD.

Maybe you should hear it... The waveform doesn't prove anything, but it sure confirms everything my ears tell me.

And the DSD makes it exactly like that, sounds like a rock record, sounds great and kicks... It just doesn't make your head hurt. Maybe that's a bad thing...

Please read before you post and make assumptions... Mark Wilder remastered both versions...

 

Oui.

 

Compression compresses the loud parts down and gives the 2x4 effect when used heavily. A Maximizer adds harmonic content which on certain settings brings up the softer parts and will not chop the tops of the waveforms off like a compressor will.

Frank R.

 

Sergio is asking why the two graphs have different dynamics? One graph seems to miss the general ebb and flow of dynamics as well as the points of much higher dynamics (the Legacy) that the other seems to preserve (the DSD). Is there any explanation apart from "one is louder than the other"? If that was the case, the two waveforms should look identical, but one would be a magnified version of the other. This certainly doesn't appear to be the case. I too would like to hear an explanation - what happened to the short term peaks that are very obvious in the DSD? I am not slighting Mark's work - I think his "Time Out" sounds wonderful.

 

Hi Gang, I've noticed there are a lot of posts about Miles' Brew. Could those be broken off to a different thread? It might be easier for someone to find than down the road, rather than this thread which I was intended to deal with the Original Mix of Time Out on CD, specifically the 1st pressing Japan for US PRE/NON Columbia Masterworks.

 

I'm sorry for mixing Miles with Brubeck... I was looking for some answers, and at some point going the "Miles Way" seemed like a good choice to get at least some of those answers by choosing a different route (the common factor being Mark Wilder).

I think the latest questions and general curiosity about the different approach Mark seems to have had when remastering Bitches Brew for the Legacy and for the DSD CD's, is very interesting and would certainly benefit from a new thread

I'd sure like to get some more details about that, not only for Bitches Brew, but also for some other Legacy CD's for which the same type of remastering technique was probably used.

It looks like compression... it even sounds like compression... but then some say it's not compression. Now terms like "maximizer" or "just louder" are mixed in the pot and we don't seem to be any closer to the truth

 

Sergio,

Not sure about any of the Miles stuff, but Brubeck's Time Out has no digital compression. The HDCD and CD layers are both lower in volume (the HDCD more so) than the 1st Pressing Japan for US PRE/NON Columbia Masterworks. As I said it's a good disc. Might be worth you seeking out, but the SACD is by far my favorite digital version.

Rick

 

I don't think we'll get any answers

 

[deleted, never mind] .

 

Not necessarily audible resolution, though. It depends on how noisy the recording is in the first place. For example, if you a do a needle drop, you aren't losing any significant audible resolution by keeping the peaks a couple of dB down from 0. Also, since many digital meters aren't accurate with respect to 'intersample overs', and some players may not reconstruct IO's correctly, it can make more sense to keep peaks below 0dBfs.

 

I just got the 32DP version of Time out and it's definitely a different mix. Did I finally find the original mix on CD?

BTW, this is a fantastic sounding CD. There are a few tape dropouts but the overall tone is amazing. Thanks to everyone for recommending it.

 

You are welcome!

 

Jaime do your numbers match these? :

Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 100.0 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 79.6 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 94.4 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 94.2 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 77.3 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 91.3 %
Original Japan for US.log: Peak level 100.0 %

Thanks.

 

Does the 2009 2CD Legacy Time Out use the original 1959 stereo mix or is it remixed anew from the 3 tracks.

The liner notes don't make this clear. The 2nd disc containing previously unissued live performances at Newport are new mixes, but it's unclear if the original album tracks on Disc 1 are new mixes or not.

Can anyone confirm?

 

I was told here that the 2disk copy was slightly different to the single disk legacy reissue, that was a remix. The original 1959 is on several early CDs and used up to the Legacy.

No reason was given, only that the 2-disk issue 'sounded better' than the single.

 

What about the Classic records reissue?

 

Exactly! What about this?

 

Is it the original mix?