Music Matters--Why No Cecil Taylor, Sam Rivers, etc.?

As I recall, those sets were unavailable while sets that were released immediately before and after them continued to be available. I surmised it was due to selling out, and I think it was, but I'd be interested to hear any evidence to the contrary. But it happened quickly enough that I don't think it was a matter of licensing running out.

 

Remember the Stuff Smith Mosaic? That one wasn't even close to selling out when it was suddenly pulled, due to the fact that the lease was ended by Universal.

Besides, the fact that the Taylor, Rivers and Cherry sets were unavailable while sets that were released immediately before and after them continued to be available doesn't prove anything. As stated by Mosaic the leases vary in detail, so the expiration dates may have varied also.

 

i have all these sets, it would be interesting to see what the numbers written in the books are. it may give some indication, or at least a minumum number sold. i think i bought the cherry set toward the end of its availability.

the cherry set was only 2cds and the rivers set was 3 which made them more affordable than some of the others.

 

and

 

My Andrew Hill 10 lp set is 33xx and my Sam Rivers 3cd set (which I would have bought on vinyl, but was already sold out) was 37xx.

Let's highlight that. The Sam Rivers sold out on vinyl before the license expired (else why not make more).

 

That doesn't prove anything either. It may interest you to know that Mosaic sets are hand-numbered at random, within the total number they're allowed to sell; it doesn't say how many actually sold - that's what Mosaic's Scott Wenzel and others at Mosaic told me.

Besides, the vinyl license may have had a different expiration date from the CD license. Mind you, I'm not saying the Sam Rivers vinyl set (or the others) didn't sell out, I'm just suggesting various possibilities.

 

All this back and forth is cute, but only Joe Harley himself can answer this question and he's not talking...yet.

 

Still that does not tell you anything about how audiophile vinyl issues of Sam Rivers, Cecil Taylor or Andrew Hill albums would sell.

 

It may not have "sold out." I'm not sure if "limited edition of 5,000" is both formats or not. In some cases the vinyl has been gone before the cd, in other cases vice versa. The Hill was last available on lp as I recall. I'm sure as they sell through stock, at a certain point they say ok, we have 6 more months to sell this, we're selling 30 a month, so there is no point pressing 250 more which is our minimum order. [Fill in the correct numbers, obviously.]

My point is that at least for the Rivers, there was vinyl demand unfulfilled, on my part at the very least.

 

When I called Scott at Mosaic this afternoon to order that Miles Quintet LP set, I forgot to ask him if it's true that the lease agreement on the Hank Mobley material was negotiated at the same time as the original 99-year British lease on Hong Kong -- and Hank's is still in effect!!

 

i'm surprised at this- i was under the impression that the big boxes were numbered in some kind of approximate order- maybe not exactly but not totally at random either. if so, how do they make sure that two of the boxes don't have the same number?

i know the early selects that were numbered were machine numbered and these went out at random.

 

Don't know about that, but its fair game to criticize an artform because you think it sounds like dissonant garbage. There is nothing anti-intellectual about that. We haven't heard from the Music Matters people, but I bet the real answer to the question about why they aren't releasing more adventurous titles is because they fear (rightly) that they won't sell. Music Matters is in business to make money, not to lose it.

Blakey & Miles sell a lot more than Ornette.

Beethoven sells a lot more than Schoenberg.

The Eagles sell a lot more than Joanna Newsom.

Thats life.

 

well of course audiophile vinyl is a different animal...there's a large percentage of that market who buy less for the music and more for the sonics and the lifestyle implications. it's not necessarily the same market as for a mosaic set, which i imagine has a higher percentage of people who are dedicated to the music alone.

 

I'm guessing the numbers of the sets that were already sold are stored electronically and can be checked in real time by any Mosaic employee. Or maybe the numbers are allotted by the computer as soon as an invoice is created, the employee can then write it in the booklet. The numbers are printed on their invoices.

 

could be, though what's the point of numbering them at all then?

i do know that if i order a set at time of release or preorder one i invariably get a much lower number than if i order one when it goes on the last chance or running low list.

 

Hi there,

I just love this forum. Always something to see when I check back in after a day or so. Thanks so much for your kind words Ed.

I posted a few months ago on this topic (can’t remember the post number). I relayed a story of when I was creative director of the JVC/XRCD program.....a particular jazz fan was always after to me to do Albert Ayler on XRCD. I brought it up but JVC were not interested and the XRCD team was under pressure to issue titles that sell. I personally like all of this music....Albert, Don Cherry, Cecil (if I’m in the right mood), Sam.....I have all of it and listen to it all.

We do have Sam represented on at least one album in this series on at least one title, Larry Young’s great Into Somethin’. Someone mentioned we were light on Shorter. Actually we have Wayne’s Speak No Evil scheduled later this summer, a last minute addition. We will also be doing Wayne’s JuJu later on. And of course we do have Eric Dolphy’s Out To Lunch on the schedule. We’ll take a good look at how this title does. If it is successful that will encourage us to approach some of the more outside material such as Andrew Hill. We have no plans to issue the Cecil Taylor or Don Cherry albums at the present time, but we’ll see how everything goes. We do intend on going on after we get through our initial titles.

There is no question that the market for “outside” jazz is smaller than the already small market for mainstream. As a fan, this is hard to accept, but it’s true nonetheless. As you know Michael Cuscuna is part of our team at Music Matters. I asked him about this topic and here is his response:

“These were among the worst sellers for Mosaic (only Shorty Rogers and George Shearing did worse).”

On the other hand Ornette Coleman has managed to achieve a wonderful measure of broad success over the last 5 or 6 years especially. This is very gratifying to see.

After we get through the titles we have listed, we’ll take stock and see where we can go. As someone mentioned, possibly we could try some of these more outside titles on a lower priced 33RPM series. We’ll just have to see.

Trust me, the lack of your personal favorites has nothing to do with our taste. We love this stuff. (I had on Where Is Brooklyn last night.) It does however have everything to do with our wanting to survive and continue.

As always your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Joe

 

well, there ya go, right from mr. cuscuna. it's probably an indication why mosaic doesn't release much of this kind of stuff anymore. still among the best sets mosaic ever did, and i'd add shorty rogers to the list too. i'm surprise shearing didn't sell. i guess we won't be seeing a mosaic anthony braxton set anytime soon.

now back to my hannah and britney cds.

 

it's also fair game to expose your musical ignorance.

that's life!

 

Hi there,

We have these by Freddie: Open Sesame and (very shortly) Here To Stay. We also have Larry Young's Into Somethin', Jackie's Let Freedom Ring, Pete LaRoca's Basra and Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch. The Joe Henderson titles are Our Thing and Inner Urge. (Wait till you hear Joe on Horace's Cape Verdean Blues....awesome.) Surely you don't think these are "milquetoast" titles do you?

Seriously, the nature of reissue programs like this is that you will not be able to please everyone's taste. We try to pick titles that we think we'll please the most people. Remember, we have our life savings in this venture. It's our asses on the line, no one else.

But we'll see how it goes and see how the more adventurous titles do. If everything sells then we'll be embolden to stretch out a bit more.

I love the ability to chat with you all that Steve's forum offers. With a subject like Blue Note we never run out of things to say!

Enjoy,

Joe

 

There's a difference between discussing music and dismissing something ad hominem. I suppose if someone hasn't cultivated the musical vocabulary that would enable them to speak authoritatively, or haven't cared to cultivate such a vocabulary, then all they can do is call something they don't like 'dissonant garbage'. In other words, there is no substance whatsoever to your pronouncement.

Not that you care, apparently, but I went to a BSO performance this season that consisted of a string orchestra arrangement of Beethoven's Grosse Fugue played before and after the Beethoven and Schoenberg violin concertos.

There is a recording of a duet performance at Columbia University's MacMillan Theatre on December 15, 1979 of Max Roach and Cecil Taylor entitled Historic Concerts, on Soul Note records. Mary Lou Williams played piano duets with Cecil Taylor on April 17, 1977 at Carnegie Hall which was also recorded and released as a record entitled Embraced. And Taylor played a duet track with Tony Williams on Williams' Joy of Flying LP.

Your remarks are directly contradicted by the vast body critical and musical expression that has taken place since the turn of the twentieth century. Have you heard Charles Rosen play, or read any of his books about classical music? He also writes for NY Review of Books.

I figure your mind is made up about music and musical taste. That's OK with me. I don't have to live there, but it's ugly to hear music talked about in that way.

 

I understand completely what you are saying Joe and I hope that some of these less "popular" titles sell enough to encourage MM to put out some of the less known Bluenotes. I'd like to thank you for putting Basra on the list. I am anxiously awaiting the release of that lp. I have a Japanese RVG cd of the album, but I'd really like to hear a good vinyl version and the original is too rare and expensive to consider. It can't get here fast enough.

 

Like I said...

And don't forget to take note of what he says the size of the market is for 'mainstream'.

If any of you care to try producing and distributing contemporary jazz recordings, please do and report back to me in five or ten years. I think it's the only way to find out what the size of the audience is, and you'll be doing the music a service as well.

 

I cannot speak for anyone here but I've found out to my dismay over the years of participation in the jazz forums that there are many people who do indeed think those are "milquetoast" titles with little "adventure" to offer. (Well, maybe not Out To Lunch, but all others will qualify).

Anyway, we've gone over this topic a few times before and I'm sure this will not be the end of it. I just wish we'd stop seeing wishful thoughts being presented as facts.

 

Thanks for replying, Joe. And thanks for setting the record straight on those Mosaic sets. I think they may have been before their time, as it were. Also, I wonder how much has to do, as I mentioned in my first post, with not reaching the right audience. In other words I wonder how a Cecil Taylor/Candid box would do on Revenant, who did the 9 disk Ayler set. Of course with distro through Acoustic Sounds, that is a issue for Music Matters as well.

I'd be really curious to know about the Blue Note Connoisseur series vinyl, however, since that is much more directly comparable in being single title vinyl issues from the same catalog and including unabashedly free jazz in two cases.

I have no doubt that Blakey would outsell Cecil Taylor (though whether lesser-knowns like Freddie Redd, Johnny Griffin, J.R. Monterose, would I'm not as sure). The question is whether there is enough demand for one of those out titles to justify doing it. I see Sam Rivers originals going for $200 just like Jackie McClean and other artists on your release schedule. I see grey market Euro represses of Art Ensemble of Chicago records from 1970 selling at $28 each. I know that avant-garde jazz fans, at least todays fans, love vinyl and love deluxe packaging.

It would be interesting to talk to buyers at some of the key vinyl outlets left--Amoeba SF/LA, Jazz Record Mart, Dusty Grooves, Aquarius in SF, Other Music, Forced Exposure, and see how many copies of a Cecil Taylor issue they think they might sell.

But I'm glad to hear that it's not 64 and done, and I will be very curious how Out to Lunch does.

Best of luck.

 

Ornette's "Empty Foxhole" Connoisseur CD was available for years after the other 5 titles that were issued in the same batch. The Don Cherry title never saw a second pressing, which Blue Note normally did for this series, because the first pressing sold so poorly.

The Cherry Mosaic was one of the only sets they ever issued with a license for only 3500 copies. The Sam Rivers set never sold out to it's licensed quantity. I don't know about the Taylor set, but I imagine that one timed out rather than sold out.

Huh? "hundreds of thousands"? For "A Love Supreme"? I highly doubt that. Maybe a hundred thousand and even that was probably over a 10 year span.

It may bum you out, but out Jazz just does not sell. There's no way to sugar coat that.