Genesis - early CD versions thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Black Elk, Dec 18, 2007.

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  1. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Introduction

    This thread is a response to recent and on-going discussions on the forum about early CD versions of the Genesis catalog, i.e., it is concerned with all CD versions released BEFORE the Definitive Edition Re-masters (DE) in 1994. The information contained in this thread is drawn from the following threads:

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=47469

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=105179

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883

    The scope here was to try to identify all the various versions that the forum has uncovered, but, given that the above threads run to over 80 pages, some posts of the type "Version X is identical to my Version Y" may have been missed. If your contribution is missing, it was not deliberate.

    The reference point for all discussions is the Nimbus-made version on the Virgin/Charisma label (where that information is available, it is presented first). This will be referred to as V/C Nimbus. Similarly, other V/C versions will be identified by their manufacturer. This thread will, hopefully, highlight the problem of simply referring to a ‘generic’ V/C version for some titles.

    Due to the large amount of data, separate posts will be made for each album in chronological order from From Genesis To Revelation to Three Sides Live. While there have been discussions on the later albums, there is little actual data, but if someone wants to compile it and add it here, please feel free to do so.

    In order to keep things as compact as possible, certain members' contributions are identified using the following abbreviations:

    And = Andreas
    BE = Black Elk
    chai = chiagerald
    Dave = Dave W S
    Dr. M = Dr. Merkwürdigli
    hat = hatfield
    HiFi = HiFi Guy 008
    jamie = Jamie Tate
    Jeff = Jeff Carney
    kev = kevin5brown
    LP6 = LesPaul666
    maf = mafru2
    nemo = nemosonic
    Ray = RayistaGeoff

    PLEASE POST in this thread if:

    1. you have EAC data for a pressing that is not listed (be it the same as a listed version or unique);
    2. you find any errors in the data;
    3. you feel your quoted view has been mis-represented;
    4. you have data for the post Three Sides Live albums.


    PLEASE DO NOT POST in this thread if:

    1. you disagree with the group opinions. If your preference is different, the place to post your viewpoint is the main discussion thread (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883);
    2. you want to discuss the DE or 2007 re-masters. This thread is intended to identify versions of the early CDs only. If you prefer the DE or 2007 re-masters, again, please express your viewpoint in the main discussion thread linked above or in the new album-by-album thread (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=134708).

    To make it easy for forum members to find the information, please hold off on adding anything to the thread until all the posts up to Three Sides Live have appeared.

    Finally, a public thank you to forum member Raf for not only undertaking much of the analysis work but also performing editing and review duties behind the scenes. The following represents the work and opinions of this forum’s members, so thanks to you all for taking the time to share.
     
  2. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    From Genesis To Revelation

    Suprisingly, there have been no EAC levels posted in the above threads for any versions of this title. All the following was provided by Raf, except where indicated.

    - London (1988) - The first CD issue.

    - DCC (1990) - According to Steve, this is a flat transfer from a flat copy of the master tape.

    - Rock Machine (1992) - Released as Where the Sour Turns to Sweet. The tonality is similar to the DCC but with a slight bass boost.

    - Disky (1996) - This sounds most similar to the DCC (in fact, Raf cannot reliably tell them apart). Contains a 1967 demo of "Image Blown Out" that is not found on any other release. This track and the other bonus track, "She's So Beautiful" (a mis-titling of "She Is Beautiful"), run about 1% fast. (The latter can be found with correct speed and better sound quality on Archive 1967-1975.)

    - Teichiku (2004). The bass and treble have been boosted (but not as much as the Edsel). This is the only FGTR reissue Raf has heard that has been subjected to compression. It suffers from lots of clipping.

    - Edsel (2005) - Syncs perfectly with the Rock Machine and Disky CDs, but smiley-face EQ has been applied. The bonus tracks are taken from Archive 1967-1975.

    - Revvolution (2006) - Released as The Genesis of Genesis. Contains 2006 "remixes" (actually just the regular stereo versions with drum overdubs) of "The Silent Sun" and "Where the Sour Turns to Sweet". The other bonus tracks are taken from Archive 1967-1975. The remainder of the disc is identical to the Edsel CD.

    Comments by Raf: I've found only THREE truly unique transfers: the London, the DCC, and everything else. That is, everything since the Rock Machine reissue up until the present syncs perfectly with each other; only the EQ and indexing vary (and in the case of at least one Japanese reissue, compression has been applied). These 1992-and-later releases do not sync with either the London or the DCC. It seems that Jonjo (Jonathan King’s company that owns the rights to this album) has been sending out the same digital source as the "master tape" for every re-issue since 1992.

    NOTE: Dr. M determined that the absolute phase of the DCC version is inverted compared to the SKL 4990 vinyl version. The Edsel and Revvolution CDs also show this characteristic.

    The forum’s preferred versions seem to be the London, DCC and Disky.
     
  3. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Trespass

    There appear to be TWO original masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0 % - 100.0 % -100.0 % - 100.0 % - 54.8 % - 100.0 %
    [BE] - V/C DADC Austria : 100.0 % - 100.0 % -100.0 % - 100.0 % - 54.8 % - 100.0 %
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sanyo Japan : 100.0 % - 100.0 % -100.0 % - 100.0 % - 54.8 % - 100.0 %
    [Jeff] - V/C Virgin Megastore : 100.0 % - 100.0 % -100.0 % - 100.0 % - 54.8 % - 100.0 %

    Version 2
    [raf] - MCA Canada : Matrix info is #930215LL MCABD-1653 MFG BY CINRAM. On the disc label and the spine, it says MCBBD 1653. The back says "Previously released as MCABD 1653".
    [davenav] - MCA Canada : Matrix info is LT36 MCBBD 1653 #50429Z06.

    Variant of Version 2
    [PaulT] - MCA US : 100.0 % - 83.8 % - 84.1 % - 93.0 % - 59.5 % - 100.0 %

    Tracks 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 of the US and Canadian MCAs are digitally identical. However, track 4, "Stagnation", is different. The US MCA "Stagnation" seems like an analogue copy of the Canadian MCA mastering. The last 12 seconds of the US MCA "Stagnation" is faded out; the Canadian MCA has this track completely intact.

    There have also been comments about the MCA having shortened endings on all tracks. In fact, the Canadian MCA has longer reverb tails on all tracks than the V/C or the DE. The impression of being shortened is due to two reasons: (a) the reverb tails are abruptly cut off instead of smoothly faded out, and (b) there are shorter silent gaps between tracks compared to the V/C and DE. If you give the reverb tails on the Canadian MCA smooth fadeouts, you end up with endings very similar to the DE. It is actually the V/C that has the most shortened endings.

    The MCAs are generally agreed to be brighter-sounding than the V/C's. Opinion is divided as to which version sounds better.
     
  4. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Nursery Cryme

    No one has posted EAC levels for the US Atlantic title, which is considered poor compared to the V/C.

    There are TWO distinct masterings. Two of the V/C variants are re-EQ'd copies of the other V/C mastering. The Atlantic is assumed to be a unique mastering.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0 % - 52.7 % - 100.0 % - 98.5 % - 92.7 % - 53.3 % - 100.0 %
    [Gardo] - V/C EMI Swindon : 100.0 % - 52.7 % - 100.0 % - 98.5 % - 92.7 % - 53.3 % - 100.0 %
    [Raf] - V/C DADC Austria : 100.0 % - 52.7 % - 100.0 % - 98.5 % - 92.7 % - 53.3 % - 100.0 %

    Re-EQ'd copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C UK: 100.0 % - 53.6 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 95.5 % - 50.8 % - 100.0 %
    NOTE: The absolute phase is inverted on this relative to Version 1. This disc lacks manufacturer information, but looks like BE’s Live disc (see below).

    Re-EQ'd, level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1026 Japan (Black Triangle) : 82.0 % - 38.8 % - 69.6 % - 65.2 % - 67.5 % - 35.8 % - 70.2 %
    NOTE: The absolute phase is inverted on this relative to Version 1.

    Version 2
    Atlantic : no data
     
  5. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Foxtrot

    We seem to have identified FOUR distinct masterings of this title.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 99.0 % - 90.5 % - 98.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
    [Dr. M] - V/C EMI Uden NL : 99.0 % - 90.5 % - 98.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
    [Dr. M] - V/C DADC Austria : 99.0 % - 90.5 % - 98.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
    [Gardo] - V/C EMI Swindon : 99.0 % - 90.5 % - 98.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
    NOTE: On the Version 1 mastering, the first milliseconds of "Time Table" are faded in; in other words, the opening piano chord starts slightly soft (many people don't even notice this).

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1027 Japan (Black Triangle) : 82.3 % - 75.3 % - 81.8 % - 83.1 % - 83.1 % - 83.1 %

    Version 2
    [And] - V/C Virgin Megastore @2 : 83.9 % - 79.9 % - 73.8 % - 96.3 % - 56.1 % - 92.9 %

    Version 3
    [maf] - V/C West German : 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 89.4% - 100%

    Version 4
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA, US : 87.5 % - 85.1 % - 91.7 % - 100.0 % - 85.8 % - 100.0 %

    Both the V/C's and the Atlantic are liked for different reasons. Andreas has long expressed a preference for the Megastore @2 version, but it seems rare in relation to the Nimbus, so most people have not heard it (or heard only the clips Andreas has posted).

    A section of "Supper's Ready" (approximately from 14:15 to 15:40) is slightly out of tune (flat) compared to the rest of the song. This is on the master tape, and therefore all releases on all formats before 1994 have this. This was corrected on the DE by simply speeding up that section by the necessary amount. Some people feel the DE is superior for that reason; however, the Foxtrot DE is one of the most obvious examples of the detrimental use of NoNoise in the series -- actual bits of music (such as some of the hi-hat on the first track) are audibly filtered out.
     
  6. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Live

    We seem to have identified FOUR unique masterings of the Live album. When clips were posted, there was a preference for the Nimbus. Despite forum member Zal Schreiber recalling doing mastering for this title, both chiagerald and Jeff posted figures for the Atlantic disc that match the V/C Nimbus, so it remains unclear whether his version ever went into production.

    Black Elk’s early (no barcode) UK copy lacks any indication of where it was made, but looks like a PDO Blackburn disc. Strangely, it matches a disc made by Sonopress in Germany.

    There are TWO Sonopress editions!

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 82.8 % - 88.9 % - 100.0 % - 94.2 % - 94.4 %
    [chia] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 82.8 % - 88.9 % - 100.0 % - 94.2 % - 94.4 %
    [chia] - Atlantic WEA, US : 82.8 % - 88.9 % - 100.0 % - 94.2 % - 94.4 %
    NOTE: On the V/C Nimbus, in track 2 ("Get 'Em Out by Friday") at around 9:12 before the applause fades, the sound stutters in the right channel. No one has reported this on any other early CD edition, so it is unknown whether this is a mastering error, a glitch on a particular pressing, or something actually on the master tape. (The DE crossfades to the next track at this point; this could be a clue that it was an issue with the master tape that needed to be "fixed").

    Version 2
    [BE] - V/C PDO, UK (?) : 96.7 % - 100.0 % - 95.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sonopress 1 : 96.7 % - 100.0 % - 95.4 % - 100.0 % - 100.0 %

    Version 3
    [LP6] - V/C Sanyo Japan : 100 % - 100 % - 91.3 % - 86.5 % - 99.7 %

    Version 4
    [Jeff] - V/C Sonopress 2 : 93.4% - 94.0% - 85.5% - 81.1% - 93.3%
     
  7. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Selling England By The Pound

    There are at least TWO distinct masterings. The Japanese discs are based on the Nimbus; the Atlantic is based on the DADC Austria. When clips were posted, the preference was narrowly for the DADC.

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
    [And] - V/C Nimbus Virgin Megastore : 96.2% - 93.0% - 98.9% - 61.3% - 91.6% - 58.2% - 90.4% - 64.6%
    NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1029 Japan (Black Triangle) : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
    [hat] - V/C VJD-28025 Japan : 77.9% - 71.1% - 78.3% - 52.9% - 74.1% - 53.5% - 74.9% - 58.7%
    NOTE: Absolute phase is inverted on this mastering relative to Version 2 and the DE.

    Version 2
    [BE] - V/C DADC Austria : 99.5% - 96.5% - 97.7% - 62.4% - 78.2% - 53.9% - 75.4% - 61.1%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 2
    [Dave] - Atlantic : 95.09% - 92.23% - 95.50% - 60.99% - 76.47% - 52.75% - 73.69% - 59.76%
    [HiFi] - Atlantic : 95% - 92.2% - 95.5% - 60.9% - 76.4% - 52.7% - 73.6% - 59.7%
    NOTE: The differing figures for the two Atlantic discs are probably due to computer rounding. For now, these are assumed to be the same mastering.

    Version 3?
    [nemo] - V/C Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
    [HiFi] - Atlantic Sonopress : 99.5% - 96.5% - 100.0% - 63.8% - 80.0% - 55.2% - 77.1% - 62.5%
    NOTE: The Sonopress discs match some of the levels of the DADC, but not the entire disc. Is this yet another mastering?
     
  8. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway

    There is only ONE mastering of The Lamb. Bizarrely, only Disc 1 differs in volume level between pressings. We did, however, determine that V/C editions come with different booklets, some offering more information than others.

    Disc 1
    [Raf] - V/C Nimbus Disc 1 : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C Sanyo, Japan Disc 1 : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [hat] - V/C DADC Austria Disc 1 : 98.1% - 85.5% - 12.0% - 62.7% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 62.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [BE] - Atco WEA, US. Disc 1 : 95.9% - 83.6% - 11.7% - 61.3% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 61.1% - 97.7% - 97.7% - 97.7%

    Disc 2
    [Raf] - V/C Nimbus Disc 2 : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [BE] - V/C Sanyo, Japan Disc 2 : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [hat] - V/C DADC Austria Disc 2 : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%
    [BE] - Atco WEA, US. Disc 2 : 81.1% - 74.7% - 65.1% - 69.3% - 68.4% - 47.9% - 79.4% - 16.2% - 78.0% - 84.0% - 82.9% - 87.6%

    There is a humming noise that can be heard at various points on Disc 1 of the original CDs (and apparently some of the original vinyl pressings as well). This problem is not on the DE, although it is unknown whether this was achieved by using a better source or merely by filtering out the hum. At any rate, some people prefer the DE because of this; others feel that the "hum-less" advantage of the DE is negated by the obvious use of noise reduction.

    The DE has a slightly longer fade-in for the title track compared to the original CD pressings (i.e. more of the piano intro can be heard on the DE). However, all CD versions differ from the original vinyl release which starts at a slightly higher level at the beginning of the fade-in.
     
  9. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    A Trick Of The Tail

    There are TWO distinct masterings for Trick. The WG Blue Face is considered poor-sounding. The Atco is derived from the V/C Nimbus, but is not a simple level shift, as Raf's notes below show.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 84.9% - 73.0% - 95.6% - 86.2% - 89.8% - 100.0% - 87.7% - 100.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1
    [BE] - Atco Victor Co., Japan : 89.1% - 89.9% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1%

    Version 2
    [Dr. M] - V/C West German 814 499-2 (Blue Face) : 97.9% - 78.0% - 89.8% - 95.8% - 90.3% - 86.2% - 90.5% - 96.6%

    Raf wrote:
    "The V/C and Atco CDs of Trick are derived from the same digital source. Barring the issues described below, the two cancel out completely when the levels are matched. Are they the same mastering, technically speaking? You tell me! There's been a bit of monkeying done here.

    First up, the volume levels:

    Tracks 1 and 3 = the Atco is 0.8 dB louder compared to the V/C
    Track 2 = the Atco is 1.8 dB louder
    Tracks 4, 5, 6 and 7 = the Atco is 0.4 dB louder
    Track 8 = the Atco is 1.4 dB quieter

    Tracks 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the Atco have clipped peaks. I was going to do a detailed listing, but there are too many. I counted three clipped peaks on "Dance on a Volcano" and eleven on "Squonk" before I gave up. To complicate matters more, track 8 is clipped on the V/C.

    LP6's report that the V/C has longer fades is correct. This is true of all the tracks.

    The V/C also has a peculiar issue on a couple of tracks. At 4:20 on track 7, there's a section of about 250 samples missing; not a gap, but a very tiny skip that can't be detected by ear. Similarly, a section about 25 samples long is missing at 5:03 on track 8. In both cases, the remainder of the track after the skip is 0.2 dB louder."
     
  10. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Wind & Wuthering

    We have uncovered THREE distinct masterings so far. The consensus seems to be that all original CD editions are lacking in bass. Some members prefer the DE for this reason. Others feel that the use of noise reduction on the DE is unforgivable and the older CDs (with or without a manual bass boost) are better; of these people, most seem to prefer the Version 1 mastering.

    Version 1
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon : 100.0% - 94.0% - 94.6% - 76.1% - 83.0% - 70.0% - 41.2% - 92.1% - 100.0%

    Version 2
    [PaulT] - V/C West German: 100.0% - 100.0% - 83.2% - 97.5% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 39.4% - 100.0% - 100.0%

    Version 3
    [BE] - Atco Sanyo Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Sanyo Japan : 81.3% - 82.3% - 78.0% - 78.2% - 74.6% - 71.1% - 79.8% - 80.6%
    NOTE: This version is easily recognized in that it contains only 8 tracks. "Unquiet Slumbers..." and "...In That Quiet Earth" are combined into Track 7.

    HiFi reported having a UK V/C Sonopress that contains pre-emphasis. This might help explain why some listeners do not like the early CD editions (do their players have de-emphasis properly implemented? Stereophile's tests -- published online -- of CD players shows that this is not always the case!).
     
  11. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Seconds Out

    There are TWO versions of Seconds Out. The Atlantic has been reported as brighter than the V/C. The preference is for the V/C.

    Version 1, Disc 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Uden, NL Disc 1 : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%
    [Raf] - V/C Sonopress, Disc 1 : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus, Disc 1 : 100.0% - 82.8% - 100.0% - 99.6% - 100.0% - 94.0% - 97.6% - 92.0%

    Version 1, Disc 2
    [BE] - V/C EMI Uden, NL Disc 2 : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Raf] - V/C Sonopress, Disc 2 : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%
    [Dr. M] - V/C Nimbus, Disc 1 : Disc 2 : 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0%

    Version 2, Discs 1 & 2
    Atlantic : no data
     
  12. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    And Then There Were Three

    It appears that there are at least THREE separate masterings of ATTWT. The forum preference is for Version 1 (Version 3 is criticized for being lacking in bass).

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C Nimbus : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%
    [LP6] - V/C EMI Uden, NL : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%
    [LP6] - V/C Swindon : 95.2% - 73.9% - 100.0% - 77.7% - 72.9% - 100.0% - 80.5% - 80.8% - 67.9% - 88.8% - 68.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1?
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1015 Japan : 84.1% - 84.9% - 89.2% - 78.4% - 89.7% - 94.1% - 84.1% - 85.4% - 78.8% - 93.8% - 74.5%
    NOTE: Based on earlier 32VD pressings, it is assumed that this one is derived from the V/C. Maybe PaulT can confirm?

    Version 2
    V/C Blue Face : no data
    NOTE: Jeff reported that this is a different mastering to the V/C Nimbus, and provided samples as proof in the main discussion thread (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131883).

    Version 3
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA, US : 73.6% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.4% - 79.0%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3
    [Jeff] - West German Target : 92.6% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 100% - 99.5%

    NOTE: LP6 found that the "Side 2" tracks on the Atlantic have the channels reversed. Raf found that the same is true on the Target.
     
  13. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Duke

    It is unclear where we stand on this one. Opinions seem to be split: some prefer the Version 1 or 2 V/Cs, and some prefer the Atlantic.

    References have been made to French V/C and German Phonogram pressings but no EAC data has been provided for them, nor is there any data for a V/C Nimbus.

    At the minimum there appear to be TWO distinct masterings. The French V/C is far from a simple level-shifted version of the Atlantic, as Raf's analysis below shows.

    Version 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon : 74.2% - 97.9% - 45.8% - 91.5% - 95.4% - 97.6% - 95.9% - 82.6% - 94.3% - 77.9% - 88.0% - 81.5%
    NOTE: Jamie reported that the V/C EMI Swindon has its absolute phase inverted.

    Level-shifted copy of Version 1?
    [PaulT] - V/C 32VD-1036 Japan : 79.0% - 94.5% - 48.8% - 92.9% - 84.5% - 100.0% - 81.8% - 82.3% - 80.9% - 89.5% - 96.3% - 79.6%

    Version 2?
    [hat] - V/C Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% (only 4 tracks provided)
    [HiFi] - V/C German Blue Face : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%
    [Ray] - V/C German Yellow Rays : 91.3% - 88.4% - 45.7% - 94.5% - 98.4% - 95.8% - 95.8% - 84.3% - 85.4% - 80.7% - 90.7% - 92.3%

    Version 3
    [BE] - Atlantic JVC, US : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    [kev] - Atlantic WEA, US : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    [hat] - Atlantic Victor Co., Japan : 87.0% - 87.0% - 51.1% - 89.1% - 87.0% - 87.0% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 86.5% - 87.0% - 87.0%
    NOTE: The channels are reversed on this mastering. (LP6 reported that the Polygram/Phonogram 814-270-2 pressing has reversed channels too, but there is no further data available for that edition.)

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3 (channels correctly oriented)
    V/C France - no data

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3 (channels correctly oriented)
    [Jeff] - V/C PDO, UK : 89.1% - 89.1% - 65.6% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 89.1% - 88.5% - 89.1% - 89.1%

    Raf wrote (with regard to Version 3):
    "The French V/C cancels out with the Atlantic when the latter's channels are reversed. Tracks 4, 7, 8 and 9 on the French V/C are 1 dB louder than their Atlantic counterparts.

    The rest of the French V/C tracks are 1.2 dB louder than the Atlantic except for track 3. And that is where it gets really weird...

    The left channel of track 3 of the Atlantic (which is actually supposed to be the right channel) is 3.2 dB quieter than the right channel of track 3 of the French V/C. However, the right channel of the Atlantic (which should be the left) is only 3 dB quieter than the left channel of track 3 of the French V/C.

    The right channel of track 3 of the French V/C is 3.2 dB louder than the left channel of track 3 of the Atlantic (which is actually supposed to be the right channel). However, the left channel of track 3 of the French V/C is only 3 dB louder than the right channel of the Atlantic (which should be the left).

    Unlike the case with the original Trick CDs, there is no clipping anywhere. In other words, this is just a matter of having different relative levels from track to track (and in the case of track 3, from channel to channel). In effect, the Atlantic has more dynamic range than the French V/C overall.

    So which is more correct? Is there even a way of telling for sure? The only other edition I have to compare with is the DE, and on the DE, the amount of dynamic range is more like the Atlantic than the French V/C.

    I'm giving this one to the Atlantic, reversed channels and all, unless I see any other evidence that sways my opinion. But if you have absolutely no means of reversing the channels, the French V/C isn't such a big compromise.

    The V/C PDO is the same as the French V/C except that all tracks are 1 dB quieter."
     
  14. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Abacab

    It looks like there are FOUR distinct masterings of Abacab. As with Duke, there seem to be fans of both the V/C and Atlantic versions. Again there is no V/C Nimbus data to use as a reference.

    Version 1
    [kev] - V/C PDO : 96.7% - 86.8% - 84.2% - 83.7% - 89.6% - 98.6% - 82.4% - 93.8% - 91.6%
    NOTE: Jamie determined that the V/C PDO has its absolute phase inverted.

    Version 2
    [Jeff] - Target : 100.0% - 100.0% - 93.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 95.6% - 68.3% - 98.8% - 98.5%
    NOTE: LP6 reported that West German Vertigo version equals the West German Target.

    Version 3
    [Jeff] - Atlantic WEA : 95.5% - 95.5% - 90.9% - 92.0% - 95.5% - 93.4% - 66.7% - 95.5% - 95.5%

    Level-shifted copy of Version 3
    [BE] - Atlantic JVC : 100.0% - 100.0% - 95.1% - 96.3% - 100.0% - 97.8% - 69.8% - 100.0% - 100.0%

    Version 4
    Atlantic Gold CD - no data
    NOTE: This CD is slightly compressed.
     
  15. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Three Sides Live

    There is only ONE mastering for Disc 1. However, there are TWO distinct masterings for Disc 2. (In the original release, Side 4 was different for the US and European editions. When the first CDs came out, the track lists in various regions reflected this difference. Strangely, the masterings for the V/C and Atlantic Disc 2's are completely different despite the "Side 3" tracks being the same.)

    No V/C Nimbus data has been made available.

    Disc 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon Disc 1 : 100.0% - 97.0% - 96.3% - 86.5% - 87.6% - 96.5% - 89.3%

    Level-shifted copy of Disc 1
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA Disc 1 : 85.1% - 82.6% - 82.0% - 73.6% - 74.6% - 82.2% - 76.0%
    [Raf] - West German Vertigo Disc 1 : 85.1% - 82.6% - 82.0% - 73.6% - 74.6% - 82.2% - 76.0%

    Disc 2 Version 1
    [BE] - V/C EMI Swindon Disc 2 : 92.5% - 85.1% - 100.0% - 75.5% - 80.4% - 88.1%

    Disc 2 Version 2
    [BE] - Atlantic WEA Disc 2 : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
    [Jeff] - West German Vertigo Disc 2 : 81.9% - 79.3% - 80.2% - 78.8% - 65.6% - 90.0% - 77.6% - 64.1%
     
  16. RayistaGeoff

    RayistaGeoff Forum Resident

    Many thanks for compiling all this! I can fill in a few holes later on today after I get back from work. (I've got a yellow rays Trick and ATTWT also. We'll see if they're also the same as the WG blue faces. And I've also got a first-pressing WG Vertigo blue swirl of Abacab.)

    Also, just a small nomenclature thing. At least with respect to the yellow rays discs, they don't have the Virgin logo on them anywhere as (presumably) they just pre-date Virgin's acquisition of Charisma (1984 or so?). So it's probably not technically right to call them "V/Cs". They should probably be just "Charisma"s. Slightly later discs do have both the Virgin and Charisma logos. Can't remember off the top of my head what the story is with the blue-faces as I don't own any, but I think there are scans of the labels in the Forum here somewhere.

    Geoff
     
  17. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member



    Yes, I think it's safe to say these two are the same, as I did not use EAC to get those numbers. So in keeping with consistency you can drop my posted levels of this. I've since downloaded EAC btw, so I'll check the levels again and I'm certain they will match HiFi's.

    And a hats off to you for undertaking this! :thumbsup: Now I may be able to crawl out of my confusion and see where I stand with the discs I have.
     
  18. Zal

    Zal Recording engineer

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I'm not really up on the chronology of the release of the various versions of the LIVE CD release, but I can say that I did master this one for CD for Atlantic.

    If I understand correctly, there is a question about the Atlantic and the V/C Nimbus being identical, yes?

    That being the case, it would seem to me that the V/C Numbus source was cloned from my mastering.

    Is there any indication that there was another mastering engineer responsible for the V/C Nimbus mastering?? Was it released earlier than the Atlantic version? And would that make a difference?

    In the end, if you folks like it, that's all that counts...no matter what the actuality.




     
  19. mark f.

    mark f. Senior Member

    Great stuff! I have West German made V/C versions of "Nursery Cryme" and "And Then There Were Three." I'll post the EAC results for those when I get home.

    I'll also post EAC results for Genesis to Revelation Rock Machine and Disky versions. On that disc I agree with Jeff M that the Rock Machine is a bit better than the Disky. Makes me wonder if they had a lower gen tape.
     
  20. RayistaGeoff

    RayistaGeoff Forum Resident

    Well, ripped a few of my early pressings to fill in a few holes, and no real surprises:

    The EAC values for my Charisma West German yellow rays (matrix: 814 499-2 01) are identical.

    Again, the EAC values for my Charisma West German yellow rays disc (matrix: 800059 2 01) are identical.

    Yep, I can confirm that. I ripped my Vertigo blue swirl (matrix: 800044 2 01) and the EAC values are identical

    Just a quick note on this: I don't remember LesPaul666's exact posting, but the Polygram/Phonogram pressing is surely referring to the same thing as the yellow rays pressing. The artwork on my yellow rays has "marketed by Phonogram" on the back artwork, the disc itself says "Made in West Germany by Polygram" and the catalog numbers are consistent with the 80's Polygram/Polydor numbering system.

    Geoff
     
  21. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    You are talking about this: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=1686717&postcount=28

    It's a Vibrant Charisma label, hence V/C! See, I knew there was method in my madness!! :D





    It's too late for me to edit my text now, so we can either ask a Gort to change it, or just wait for enough new data to get posted here before creating a Version 2? The forum is not set up for 'living' documents, but we can certainly produce new versions to supercede the old ones.
     
  22. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    Zal,

    It was not my intention to cause you any offence (if I have done so, I'm sorry). Your assumption is just as valid as mine. There are no mastering credits on any of the V/C discs. What these threads have shown is that the V/C and Atlantic editions of "Live" are identical. With regard to release dates, "The Genesis Discography" by Scott McMahan claims that the V/C CD was released in 1987, while the Atlantic was not issued until June 1988. I have no way of knowing if that is accurate. What we do know is that from time to time labels or manufacturing facilities get things wrong: witness EMI in Europe not using the "Shine On" masters for the Pink Floyd catalog in 1994, the Canadian versions of "Help" and "Rubber Soul", Barry D. stating that he mastered certain albums that did not go into production, etc.
     
  23. Great Deceiver

    Great Deceiver Active Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Black Elk: thanks for taking the time to compile and post all of this! Having this laid out so easily really makes tracking down the different versions and comparing them much easier :righton:

    I'll need to sit down with my CDs and compare now...
     
  24. Zal

    Zal Recording engineer

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I took no offense....as I ended my shpiel....

    "In the end, if you folks like it, that's all that counts...no matter what the actuality."

    It's the music(ality) that matters !


     
  25. mark f.

    mark f. Senior Member

    I finally found a copy of the Atlantic "Live" and it's fantastic. I have an original French pressing of the Charima LP and I find the CD more engaging than the vinyl. It surprised that the recording is so vivid on CD. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
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