Question for Barry Diament re: GUNS N' ROSES "Appetite For Destruction"

I agree. I think if they hadn't had the mega stardom that they did, we would have a few more "Apetite" type of albums from them... oh well, we always have Hanoi... lol.
RRR

 

I have to admit, it took me until just a few years ago to truly appreciate 'AFD'. Here's why...

One day I went to the Tower on Sunset, and I noticed one of the big album covers on the side of the building for 'L.A. Guns'. I thought that was a pretty cool name. I had never heard any of their music.

About two weeks later, I went to the same Tower, and this time I noticed a big album cover on the side of the building for 'Guns N' Roses'. I thought to myself, first 'L.A. Guns', now 'Guns N' Roses'?! These 'Guns N' Roses' must be nothing but copycats. So I pretty much had a bad opinion of them, and even when I actually heard their music, my view of them was tainted. I didn't start giving them a chance until the 'Use Your Illusion' albums.

 

Guns 'N Roses actually got their name partially from L.A. Guns. Before G'N'R were formed, half of the band was playing in L.A. Guns and half in another band called 'The Hollywood Roses'.

Disagreements ensued, members of each band left and formed a new band made up of the members that left their respective bands... Guns 'N' Roses

 

Thanks. I had never heard that. It actually makes me appreciate the name 'Guns N' Roses' a little bit more.

 

To add to that...Axl and Tracii Guns formed the orginal GN'R. Slash replaced Tracii, who went on with L.A. Guns, the only band he had to work with, really. And it was his band. The rest is history.

Back in the 80s, the L.A. scene was like 2 separate swimming pools close by, and each band member kept hopping in and out of them.

Actually, that's the whole L.A. scene up until this day. lol. For example, L.A. Guns is still going without its founder, Tracii Guns. They just put out a great cd called, 'Tales From The Strip.' in 2005.

-MCD

 

And Axl and Tracii should get back together as they could both use a friend right now.

I just saw Tracii's version of LA Guns Thursday night here in Portland and I have two comments:

1) Tracii Guns is arguably one of the best guitar players I've EVER seen... and I've seen just about all of them from the 70's and 80's (all of them from the 80's, for sure)!

2) The band sucks. The lead singer looks like the rabbit from Alice in Wonderland. There were only 30 people left in the bar when LA Guns actually finished their set. I never thought it would be possible for Bullet Boys to dominate any band Tracii Guns was in, but they did, and by a long shot!

Tracii was actually really good friends with Slash before he and Axl ever got together (which was in about 1985 when Guns was only 19 years old).

Thank God for Circus Magazine back in the day. I learned more from that mag than I did any school book in the 80's

 

I was a DJ in college radio when AFD was sent to us on Uzi Suicide records, just before Geffen. I heard and said this is gonna be huge. These guys are actually musicians! It took about a week and boom.

 

Hi Barry,

I believe you do understand where I'm coming from from your explanation above. It's kind of a shame that what you did with talented technique can be altered in so many ways prior to our ears receiving it. Thank goodness that these I've mentioned are the exception rather than the rule for your work at large.

Thanks for explaining Barry, a pleasure as always.

PS. Will you be teaching mastering engineering one day?

(Apologies to Rob for temporarily hi-jacking his thread)

 

Hi Dave,

Thank you again for your very kind words.

In the past year, I've acquired a second "apprentice" for recording and audio in general as well as mastering. Nothing formal though.

Believe it or not, other than some fundamentals to the approach, I don't think very much can be "taught". Reminds me a bit of writing computer software, where there are really only a handful of basic data structures (like conditional logic, etc.). I always thought well designed logic comes from something inside. There are parallels with audio engineering.

I always recommend folks read everything they can get their hands on (both audiophile and "pro" as each can fill in areas the other lacks) and listen to as many of the best recordings on as many systems in as many rooms as they can AND listen to as much live (non public address system) music as they can. At a certain point, it starts to become easier to separate the wheat from the chaff. In my view, the ones who are going to be the next generation of fine engineers will have done this.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hello,

Just to clarify, is this a digital tape (presumably containing something like 16/44.1 .wav files)?

When it arrives at the manufacuring plant, do thay "play" it in another machine that literally "burns" a master compact disc?

TIA,
Stephen

 

No wave-files but a digital "stream" (like DAT or DCC).

 

Thanks for the quick reply. In that case, I have a little follow up question ...

In that case, does the tape hold some sort of index (for track sequencing and the like)? I was wondering how the plant would know about (say) the correct "gaps" between each track.

TIA,
Stephen

 

Hi Stephen,

The u-matic tapes sent to the replication plants in those days contained the digital audio already formatted to include sequence and track spacing, etc..
(In other words, they were not merely a set of songs in digital audio format, they could be played back and you'd hear the album as it was supposed to sound.)
The tapes also had a time code track and were sent to the plant with a sheet indicating where each song started and stopped. This information got coded onto the discs when the glass master was cut.

Nowadays, I send what are called DDP (Data Description Protocol) files to the plants. These are data files, not audio and result to my ears, in discs that are more faithful to the CD master. A DDP "file set" contains a file with all the audio information and a few others, including one with track start and stop timing info.

A very interesting article on what happens when a CD is made can be found at:
http://www.stereophile.com/features/827/

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks for the link.

Every post of yours I have read has been very informative.

Thanks again Mr. Diament

regards

Michael

 

I have a collection of over 500 CDs (a huge collection by Spanish standards) and was trying to find something mastered by Barry. I first thought about the soundtrack for the film The Lost Boys (I was a teenager 20 years ago when it came out) which I have on record and CD (the CD sounds dreadful, why can it be...?), but it was really mastered by Dennis King at Atlantic Studios, until this thread started. Voilà, a Barry Diament mastering!!!
I'm curious about why if Atlantic was a part of Warner Bros. Records (a Warner Comnnication Company at the time) had an in-house mastering studio even for CDs, Warner Bros. Records and brother companies CDs were mastered on the 80's by WCI Record Group. What was really WCI Record Group and why were masterings uncredited?

 

Hi EddieVanHalen,

I'm confused. Dennis mastered "The Lost Boys" but you say "Voila, a Barry Diament mastering". Which CD?

Warner had a CD mastering room before Atlantic did. CDs credited to "WCI Record Group" were most likely mastered at Warner, by Joe Sidore.

"Why were masterings uncredited?" I don't know. I remember asking myself the same question one day, so I asked for mastering credit on the work I did. The good news is that happened. The bad news is that sometimes I got "credit" for CDs I did not master - when the art department assumed I would master the CD but in fact, the increasing work load required that some jobs get outsourced to other facilities.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Ooops, sorry Barry, sometimes I think way too fast, and thus I type like that.
I meant I first thought The Lost Boys soundtrack was yours but after having a look at the artwork I realized it wasn't. Then this thread started and I didn't have to look for a mastering of yours among my records, but I was going to do it, I was curious about your job.
Thanks very much for your answer.

 

That doesn't sound too good...

So, what do you think of 'Tales From the Strip?'

Really, I'd say Tracii should go back to Phil and Steve. Tracii and Stacey Blades would make great duel guitarists. Both guys are excellent players.

But, as you know, too many egos.

-MCD

 

WCI Record Group was just another name for WEA back then. Warner Communications Inc.

 

Bump. I didn't want to start a new thread just for this, from the latest Rolling Stone, celebrating the 20th anniversary (!) of Appetite:

 

A big part of the reason for the band's success, IMO, is that the album sounded pretty good -- and captured their (at the time ) raw spirit.

I remember hearing a story about the intro to "Sweet Child" ... how Slash had to cut 50 takes or so in order to get his intro (w/ no click track) to sync up with where the song begins. They don't do it like that any more.

 

I can remember he claimed that the solo was one track, in the first take. Can't be true, because it is clearly cross-faded in the middle of it.

 

Interesting. Appears to not make sense from a production standpoint. I wonder why they didn't just have Steven play quarter notes on hi-hat at the beginning for Slash to lock to. Did the song originally begin with the whole band playing from the top? If so, there probably wouldn't even have been enough leader tape for Slash to put down his part.



Dan

 

You said it! Also why I wanted to add it to this thread--Barry mastered it, and they don't do it like that any more, either (he does, but "they" don't).

 

Wish I could remember where I read that about the intro, probably an interview in some long-lost issue of GFTPM.

In accordance with what I remember about the discussion on the intro, you can hear the song speed up when the band comes in.