I don't follow you. I am so impressed with the '89 edition of Red that I am planning on picking up some of the other '89 editions. Specifically, I am hoping that Larks' and Starless will have less top end than the originals, which I already complained about. I feel fortunate that it turned out this disc was the DE! And as regards biases, I must confess that I love the Japanese mini lp sleeves of the Crimson discs, and I really wanted them to win out.
Of course, but come on. You think Steve would leave drums sounding like that!? Sounds more like an Inglot/Hersch EQ job to me, sans the compression.
Jeff, for you, maybe just knowing that version X is the latest remaster, is unconscious signal enough. Or believing that the DE was actually the original CD issue (from the days of 'flat transfers'). Stuff like that. You can't rule it out, the way you do your comps.
I have owned every permutation of every Crimson disc and still own some of the original and DE issues. I prefer the 30th anniv. on all accounts, but I can see/hear how one would prefer some of the earlier versions. Based on a conversation I had with Robert Fripp in the early 90s all of the original EG/Jem CDs were flat transfers from a variety of sources, but in all cases they were tapes that were meant for LP cutting and were at least three generations removed from the original copy masters that were used for the original LP pressings. He had zero involvement with the original CDs, but had to pay for the transfers out his royalties from EG.
I'm human, of course, but truthfully, that stuff means very little to me. Of interest is that I am not fond of the EG discs across the board. As discussed, I lean towards the 30ths for both Larks' and S&BB. Curiously, in these cases, the original discs probably exhibit more "detail" due to top end boost. So, I guess I am fairly consistent in my preferences. However, I did not like the compression on the 30th of Larks or S&BB, despite it being fairly light. I'm glad it turned out that my Red disc is an '89 issue, because this gives me hope that the '89 issues of Larks and Bible Black might be more aligned with my taste. Perhaps Fripp did find better tapes for the Wetton-era stuff back in '89? If not, I hope they tamed that top end boost without the added compression of the DEs.
This is very interesting, thanks! I don't believe it it applies to all of the EG/Jem discs, however. Discs like Lizard and Wake on EG exhibit none of the usual signs of LP production tapes, while Larks and S&BB do have top end boost that is commonly heard on such tapes. It sounds like Fripp wasn't involved in the original run of CDs. Hence, I'm not sure how he would have 100% reliable data in reference to exactly which tapes EG accessed. I don't pretend to know either, but if some of those early discs are from production tapes, those are some damn flat production tapes to my ears.
Well, I gave In the Court...DE a listen tonight and have to agree with Jeff somehow - this is not a very natural sounding disc and by far the worst one of the whole catalogue. It doesn't bother me much since it's my least favourite Crimson (if anybody is reaching for the chainsaw now it's because I think it's the most dated and pompous of all) and I rarely listen to it anyway. But it's either poorly recorded or simply taken from worse tapen than the rest of catalogue - I mean compare it to Poseidon and it's a night and day difference.
I think you mean the OME, Anton, but I know what you mean, and it isn't the tape or the recording, IMO. The tape is the master, after all. If you are discussing the 1999 disc, half of that was from the master as well. IMO, it's more likely midrange jacking by Heyworth and Fripp during the mastering process that causes the thin sound of this one. The EG sounds warmer and fuller to my ears.
Wake, Lizard and Islands all have some midrange boost to my ears, but it is not that bad. The main disturbance I find is that the drums sound thinner than on the original discs as a result. OME = Original Master Edtion.
Original Master Edition...from the original found master tapes for Side One...missing for years....and never before on CD....
Me too... thanks for the exhaustive comparo. Even if I'm not entirely convinced that the 30th aren't the best. Regardless... Just wondering – have you had occasion to do any comparisons to vinyl?... particularly UK Island?
No, but I'd like to do that one day. And if I do, a UK Island will be what I will use. They are going up and up in price so it will be a somewhat expensive test. I'll probably try one album as an experiment.
I have a Pink label In the Wake of Poseidon. On my system this and the original EG disc sounds practically the same. IMO The original EG is an amazing sounding disc.
Have you listen to the samples from the "real EG" (not the EG DE) that I posted?. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2912983&postcount=66
These aren't properly encoded FLAC files, near as I can tell. I can't decode them. We're dealing with what ... 10mb files? Why not just upload a .wav?
Regarding Islands in more detail......... The original Island UK pressing was superb - real dynamics (the sudden full volume band entry in The Letters really made me jump over headphones) and wonderful treble sound - the cymbals in Ian Wallace's kit sound great. The album was a single sleeve cover with the return tabs secured outside the back cover (compared with the normal practice of glueing them inside the back cover). There was also a gatefold soft paper inner sleeve that had the Islands painting on the outside and lyrics and band pictures on the inside (this was to form the basis of the Atlantic US vinyl cover I believe - never saw inside the gatefold though - any enlightenment from owners of this gratefully accepted). About 1/3 of my record collection (including this album) was stolen and replacing it proved to be a big problem. By then, Polydor had taken over the catalogue, and the tape they were using to produce albums was seriously inferior - crackling noises and odd grumbling sounds were all through, in particular, the first 2 songs of the album. This persisted through the CD production. I never saw or heard anything prior to the first DE edition, but the first DE remaster NoNoised the extraneous noises out of existence and seriously screwed up the sound - phase shift, muffled, bass distortion, etc etc. You name it, it was there and sounded like a misaligned cassette recording, only worse. If you think Aqualung 25th was bad......and they forgot to include the tune up section at the very end of the album. The "booklet" was now a single fold with the standard Trifid nebula on the outside and band pictures and lyrics on the inside - no sight of the Islands painting at all. Totally unforgivable. I think this may have been matered at Nimbus. Anyway, there must have been serious complaints about this and it was re-remastered (as the second DE edition - not mentioned anywhere on the disc or sleeve - possibly mastered by EMI on the disc??) minus the noise reduction, but with the extraneous noises (and the tune up section) intact again. Much better sound, but nowhere near the glory of the original. Unfortunately the tape appears to start from stop at the very start of Formantera Lady - the cello actually comes rapidly up to normal speed!!!!! Not good. Then came the 30th - I have the Japanese gold CD edition (which is exactly the same as the regular 30th, and apart from cover variations, is the same as all subsequent versions). The cello speed up is fixed, the extraneous noises are gone without using noise reduction technology and the sound is close to what I remember from so long ago. I suspect the original Island master tape was finally unearthed and it sounds great. The 30th had a gatefold cover with lots of band information and new clips with the original cover included in full. The later Japanese versions returned to a single fold cover with the soft paper gatefold inner sleeve - i.e. a true mini-replica of the original (that is the 21st century and the later version) Regarding the DE releases of Larks' Tongues, there must have been at least two - one with Bill Bruford's addendum and one without. Not sure if this was on the original Island UK album - can't remember it - maybe someone can enlighten me on this one. A lot of Starless and Bible Black was very bright originally - particularly The Great Deceiver on Island UK vinyl.
The DE I had -- bought the week the CD was released -- definitely was 'without'..I've never heard that it was re-remastered a la 'Islands'. The only CD version I ever heard with the BB comment, was the first EG CD. It was on my import LP. (Which I think was made in Holland or something..,,)
I'm happy with what I have: 1969 Atlantic vinyl 1989 EG Definitive Edition remastered CD I am not an audiophile, so I am not that picky! Anthony
Agree. It was a mistake. Sorry. This is wav files from the original EG Red: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7598A6CF023C5D42 and http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7C46717930D4D0AB
Good stuff, John. Well, for the sake of curiousity as I know you're happy with the 30th, here is a sample from the first EG issue and a sample from the 30th. As discussed, I'll certainly avoid the '89 issue based on what you've advised. "The Letters" EG/Jem (CD Plant - Sweden) http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7208102F2FD6E73B 30th http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=06EDFCF03BD96358
I've got several versions of "In The Court of the Crimson King" on cd, and an early Atlantic (Broadway) lp and a later 1980's US Editions EG lp. I guess the Atlantic (Broadway) is the closest version to the orig UK Island (the label, not the album "Islands") pink rim pressing that I own - in chronological terms. The pressing is very, very noisy (maybe I just got an unlucky bad pressing). And to my surprise, the sound is very bright . The drums and bass are thinner sounding than any of the cd versions! Considering what the price for a NM copy of a UK pink rim Island label goes for, I hope they sound significantly better. I can tell you the later 1980's Editions EG lp is muddy. I'd have to listen to all cd versions again to offer any fair comparison. But is it worth comparing the Atlantic to any of the cds? Once I'd heard the 1999 Virgin Holland mini-lp 24-bit remaster, the previous cd and lp versions stayed on the shelf, unused. Regarding the 2003 OME DGC HDCD version: I was excited to hear, finally, the latest (and hopefully last) incarnation. But I was surprised at how bright the OME sounded too - although with much more bass than the Atlantic lp. I'm not ready to say any one cd version is the best yet... but they all easily beat any of the US vinyl I've heard.
EAC logs for In The Court: EG: Track 1 Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track01.wav Peak level 100.0 % Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC E387B10E Copy OK Track 2 Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track02.wav Peak level 55.9 % Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC E4B620B1 Copy OK Track 3 Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track03.wav Peak level 66.6 % Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC DE11F5FF Copy OK Track 4 Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track04.wav Peak level 22.2 % Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 4335D079 Copy OK Track 5 Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track05.wav Peak level 96.3 % Track quality 100.0 % Test CRC 01A19FE8 Copy OK No errors occured
