New Update on Genesis 5.1 Reissues

I find it hard to listen to INVISIBLE TOUCH and WE CAN'T DANCE.

Those two just didn't age well... everything else still stands up pretty good.

 

Is there any point, really, in looking at the waveforms of the 128K MP3s? I can sort of understand listening to the samples to check out the stereo mix, but beyond that, I don't see the point...

The proof will be in the full res (and hi res) products.

 

That's a fair point, but after having gone through my entire CD collection and dumping a lot of it after joining this forum. I don't blame this place for my rather.....excessive use of funds. I made that choice. But it has enlightened me to the realities of music and its various formats. Sadly, marketing convinced me to buy the wrong products many times over.

So yes, waveforms at 128k are relatively worthless. We should wait for the final product. Though, I am still nervous....

 

If the mp3 is done half-decently, from an unaltered wav as it exists on the new CDs, yes my screenshot will look exactly the same, mp3 or wav. If it's maximized, it'll look maximized, whatever the format.

Not saying all types of analysis will look the same. Nor that they will sound the same. Just that the shot I posted will not be altered in look by a trip through mp3 conversion and back to wav. I can state that as an absolute fact, because I have done just that. No change.

Now, whether those files were directly converted from what we can buy and not futzted for that website with I can't say. Why they would advertise what is supposed to be a major upgrade in sound by offering samples that were compressed more then the actual product I have no clue. But, I grant they could have done so.

 

I dont think you can judge these re-issues by a small clip on the website!

Let's not jump to conclusions here

 

That's what they want us to do, otherwise why would they put them there?

It is nearly 35 minutes of music, not a "small clip".

 

No.

The stereo versions have been remixed for the new releases, yes.

 

Given the noise levels of analog tape and the artificial nature of most rock/pop recordings (which tend not to be recorded in anything resembling a real acoustic space), it's arguable whether there's a need for SACD and DVD-A for anything but original digital recordings of 'acoustic' music with extremely wide dynamic range, e.g. , orchestras.

In other words, I suspect good old Redbook could handle the good old Genesis tapes just fine. But then we wouldn't get the surround mixes.

Many 'hi rez' fans probably don't realize that it's quite possible to compress the dynamic range of DVD-As as heavily as a 'modern' CD...and I've seen/heard it done (two examples that come to mind are the Al Green Greatest Hits, and the Yes Fragile DVD-As).

SACD has more safeguards against this sort of thing, but it should still be possible to smash an SACD by passing it through PCM stages first.

 

.wav and 128 kbps .mp3 waveforms will only look 'exactly' the same at low resolution.

indeed--spectral analysis is likely to look different. But neither view is necessarily a good indicator of how 'good' an mp3 will sound compared to its source.

{EDIT: and btw, spectral view of the 'Squonk' mp3 shows it's got no content at all above 14 kHz).

 

Thought I'd pass along some info from CD Universe in case anyone is interested:

> Hello, I wanted to ask you a question about the upcoming Genesis box set.
Here is the link:
>
> http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7413901&BAB=E
>
> Before I preorder with you, I was hoping you could confirm that this is
the box set with the bonus disc and that the video content is NTSC. There
are some online stores that are selling the 5 Genesis discs
"bundled" together, not in the box and without the bonus disc.
Their online description leads you to believe it's the box set you are
ordering, but it's not. If you are selling the real box set with the bonus
disc, you should update your product information page to include all of
this info. There are a lot of people who want to preorder this box but are
holding off because the presale info from most places is very sketchy right
now. Thanks a lot!

Response:

Dear Rich,

Thank you for your email.I apologize for the inconvenience but that is all
the information that we have available as of right now. I would suggest
checking our site weekly as we do update our site daily.

Please feel free to email me if you need further assistance.

Karina
http://www.cduniverse.com

 

Thanks. Now if you'll all excuse me I have a window to jump out of.

 

The first sample is louder than the second, but the music can only be so loud before it bumps up against the limits of dynamic range. See how the first set of waveforms look like they've been grazed by a lawn mower? That's compression.

 

Thanks Andrew, between your post and some more reading around the forum I think I have a better handle of it now (still learning though!).

I actually checked out the MP3 link dongle gave and updated the waveform for the box site version. The new image is below (MP3 TOP IMAGE; Definitive Edition version BOTTOM IMAGE):



Anyway, verbally, the difference between my exaggerated waveform and the correct waveform for the mp3 isn't huge. . .basically somewhat less loudness and compression, but still dramatically different than the DE waveforum.

I just wanted to correct that in fairness to the genesis-box site. . .it still looks like a WOW factor to me. . .and I completely agree we should reserve judgment until we know we are listening to are the real deal! Is genesis-box not a marketing site aimed at getting people to buy the new releases? If EMI (NOT Nick Davis!) "pushes their loudness button" a little just for the MP3s to get people to assume it's better because it's louder so they can sell a few more copies. . .is that a big surprise?

Just newbie speculation, nothing more! I'm asking, not telling.

Best,
Josh

 

Trust me, Josh:

1. These will be a bit compressed.

2. They will be in your face.

3. They will be pretty heavily EQd and crispy.

4. My original Virgin/Charisma and original Atlantic discs will not be replaced.

Note to newbies: The 1994 Definitive Editions were inferior to older CDs in all but two cases, IMO.

And btw, folks, it's been common knowledge here for at least two years that these would not feature the original stereo mixes but only remixes. And remember, the search engine is your friend as regards all of this!

 

No.

This is Squonk, in .wav format ripped directly off my Definitive Edition CD:




This is the same file converted to a 128kbs mp3:
(same quality as the samples genesis-box.com)




Big difference, eh?

OK, load the two into a full-screen slideshow, and flip back and forth, and the pixels are not exactly the same. Next to impossible to tell any differences when viewed side-by-side, as on this page.

Now, let's have a look again at the new re-mix:




Substantial difference!

LOUD!!!

You can see it, plain as day.

Keep in mind; Later on this song peaks at -0.4dB on the Definitive Edition. So, the loudest bits of the re-mix are just as loud, yet the softest bits are nearly doubled in volume. Compression? Perceptually it's the difference between 9 o'clock on my volume knob, and 12 o'clock.

This is not down to it being an mp3. Sorry.

Again, these are in SoundForge, zoomed to 1:512. My monitor is 1600 x 1200. I cropped the shots down to 800 x 400 which is as wide a graphic as the forum rules allow for. Saved in PhotoShop as a "high" .jpg. I don't know if that meets your definition of "low resolution" but that is what I am able to provide. It's certainly plenty big enough to see the massive difference in loudness, no?

 

I'll grant that could be possible. On the other-hand, if they believe they can WOW folks with compressed samples, and create more sales, why wouldn't they do the same with the CDs?

At this point I'm holding off until we get some field reports tho.

 

Which two Jeff? Wind & Wuthering, and?

 

ATTWT

 

i will try and answer some of your points- but this may be my last post as reading some of your posts is pretty heavy going!
why release these on sacd?
well firstly so that people who want them can have the surround mixes in a high end audio format. this is the main reason- and something i fought for - so that the surrounds would not just be released on dvd-v (although they sound pretty good in this format).

are the mixes compressed?
yes- there is analogue compression in my mixes- as there was on the original mixes- and there is a small amount of digital limiting used in mastering. i have posted before that when mastering we decided to use a small amount of digital limiting (about 3dbs) so as to not squash the life out of these tracks. don't forget that compression it is not all 'doom and gloom' . by doing some limiting you are increasing the amount of bits available (and hence definition) for the very quiet sections- so there is some benefit also. i think the albums sound very musical still with this amount of compression, believe me there are an awful lot of albums with 8dbs or more of limiting, but to have a chance of standing up in the current times a small amount had to be applied. they are not as loud as the 'platinum collectio' cd's if that gices you something to go on- and most of the mixes are new.

why use the stereo remixes?
firstly this is the bands decision. also there are market forces. in the usa a regular cd remaster release would sell very few copies- there aren't enough audiophiles to fill a small hall i'm afraid to say. you don't have to buy these if you don't like the new mixes.at least this way you get something new and a surround mix.
maybe you wont all like all of the mixes but i'm sure some of you will enjoy some of them a lot.

don't give audiophile judgements to streaming audio- i shouldn't surely have to mention this?

please be aware that comments like 'this is crap' etc. do hurt. i know i wont please everyone but have an open mind- it's good for you!

 

Thank you for the response Nick. For someone trying to learn a few things, it sure completes the experience to have the engineer himself share some comments. I sincerely hope this is NOT your last response, though I admit it must be difficult to read the sometimes intense critiques of your work. . .especially those based on 128kbps MP3s! ;D

Anticipation stinks. . .let's get those SACDs already!
Josh

 

Thanks for the reply Nick. I eagerly await the surround mixes, especially since you said you redid them from what we got on the Video Show DVD.

 

Thanks to Mr. Davis for his reply. I'm giving the first batch a chance, and I won't make up my mind until I'm able to listen to them a couple of times.

 

I definitely will purchase Wind & Wuthering / Trick of the Tail from the first batch. As I don't own the first pressings... I'm sure they are an improvements against the previous remasters and the platinum collection.

 

5.1 mixes on my favorite Genesis titles..I have to believe whatever format I get them in I will enjoy them...It will be better than not having them at all....

 

Nick-
Sorry about the nasties. I can't really apologize for someone else's comments, but we have a few on the forum who will fly off the handle before they have even heard the finished product or before it has been released. Makes no sense at all to me. Thanks for putting up with the abuse anyway and giving us your thoughts and perspective. Very valuable. I'm really looking forward to the hi-res 5.1 mixes. They will likely become some of the most cherished recordings I will own if they sound good, and I'm confident that they probably will.