Need Advice on adding subwoofer

[KLM]

I am considering adding a subwoofer to my 2 channel music system. I have a pair of Thiel 1.5's driven by Audio Research gear. Overall I have been very happy with this setup by was thinking abut getting a little more bass into the picture. I have a relatively small room 11' x 11' and wanted something that would integrate well with the Thiels.

I am not looking for earth-shaking, 15 hz, boomy bass but rather a well defined bottom end that doesn't necessarily call attention to itself. I listen to mostly classic rock, jazz and blues music.

I have heard good things about the REL line of subwoofers and especially like the fact that they have a wire connection that allows one to drive them with a signal directly from the outputs of your existing amp. These are active subwoofers that only use the signal and then use the internal amp of the subwoofer to actually drive the subwoofer.

Do most subwoofers allow you to hook it up in this manner? Although I am pretty knopwledgeable about audio in general, I must admit that I am a little in the dark about adding a subwoofer to a 2 channel audiophile system.

I understand that the most common way is to use a line level from the preamp and then connect your speakers through the subwoofers crossover. While I understand there may be some advantages to this, I am looking to avoid degrading the sound of my Thiels through an external crossover unit.

In addition to the REL, I am also considering subwoofers from Sunfire and Velodyne. I have also read good things about the Definitive Technologies line as well. I am hoping to spend around $1,000 on a new or used unit. Anyone have any experience or recommendations?

[Gary Freed]

Hi KLM,

You'll want to look at some servo controlled subwoofers for tight natural bass response. Also a sub woofer that has a high gain amplification like
1350 watts with very little distortion. Take at look at the HGSII series by velodyne. They're are in a different class than Velodynes other products.

http://www.velodyne.com/

[Tullman]

The best choice for you would be the Thiel subwoofer, but the cost is ridiculous.

[Steve Hoffman]

Not to thread crap ;) but I've never been able to get any sub to integrate correctly with my speakers. I've been sent all different kinds of subs. The best I've ever been able to do is to get a kind of reinforcement down there that still sticks out like a sore thumb, drives my dogs crazy and only seems to do any good when I'm playing pipe organ music or listening to Nat King Cole pop his "P's".

The one I had the best luck with was the Carver Sunfire. It worked nicely, but on some music I just had to switch the thing off; it was giving me a headache, as well as psychologically screwing up the linear sound of my normal speakers.

Disclaimer: Just my personal experience! I just wanted to share my point of view!

[Paul L.]

This is interesting, Steve, because all the manufacturers say that their products work seamlessly :)

[Gary Freed]

Hi Steve,

I auditioned the Carver Sunfire. A very compact high gain Sub. I finnally decided to go with the Velodyne HGS12II.

They both sounded nice but Velodyne was servo assisted and offered a
longer warranty and better support.

With music there is no substitution for the bass you get from
a full range speaker. Subs are more important for good HT.

[Ted Bell]

KLM
I have a Titan II with my Maggies and it integrates nicely in my system-definitely a music rather than HT sub. I have it hooked up through a second set of outputs through the preamp and the filter is set at 35kHz so it doesn't interfere with the Maggies. Very good value and it fits in your price range. I had Theil 1.2s prior to the Magnepans, but never tried it with them.
Titan II is only sold direct, but they have a home trial. http://www.audioc.com/speakers/TitanII/2001Titanle.htm

Jay N.

[aashton]

I have a REL Stentor II and it makes a very nice stand for putting my iMac on :)

All the best - Andrew

[KLM]

Thanks for all the responses. I would've liked to listen to the new Thiel subwoofer, but it is way too expensive to even consider. I am intrigued by the Titan's/Force subwoofers from Audio Concepts.

So is it pretty simple to hook these bad boy woofers up? Is there any advantage of running them from the amp versus the second set of outputs from my preamp? Should I be concerned about cable lengths and making sure the bass signal arrives at the subwoofer at the same time my main speakers receive their signal?

Keep the comments coming.

[KLM]

Steve,
Thanks for your thoughts on the Sunfire unit but just curious, did you ever try one of the REL models? Still contemplating a subwoofer purchase....

[danstone]

Originally posted by Gary Freed
With music there is no substitution for the bass you get from
a full range speaker.

I'm not trying to arbitrarily discredit this, but I'm hoping someone might be able to shed more light on why this is the case.

Bass response seems to be greatly affected by the acoustics of the room and the relative placement of the speakers and listener(s) within the room. Very often, the location for the best bass response is different than the location for best imaging/soundstaging.

Why wouldn't it be possible for seperate bass modules (in conjunction with acoustic treatments and even, possibly, some parametric equalization of the sub) to allow the placement flexibility needed to achieve the smoothest overall sound? Couldn't a sub (especially if available from the same manufacturer as your speakers) be designed to integrate with less than full range speakers in much the same way that full range speakers have seperate tweeters, woofers, crossovers, etc.?

I'm far from an audio expert, but I've certainly enjoyed reading some of Floyd Toole's (who is an audio expert) papers posted here:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

Likewise, I'll be very interested in reading the thoughts of other forum members who might be able to shed some further light on this.

Thanks,

Dan

[Humorem]

Hey Guys,
Multiple subs all over the room? Totally time incoherent. How can that possibly work?

As usual, let me be categorical: there is one solution and one solution only. Subs must be in perfect time alignment with the main speakers, so that the bass arrives at your ear when the mids and highs do. This is common sense and simple applied physics. This also requires front firing subs with no other drivers facing any other direction. (This rules out about 80% of all subs.)

Here's how to tell if your sub is working properly: switch it off and see if the midrange gets WORSE. If the midrange or highs get better (forget the bass for a moment) you do not have correct time alignment. When setting up the sub, listen to the midrange. Who wants good bass and bad midrange?

But getting back to the originator of the thread, an 11 by 11 room is going to be a b*tch to get good bass in. The standing waves would be almost impossible to fix without a sophisticated equalizer. But a good sub that has level and crossover controls can help if used properly. You can buy powered front firing subs for $100 that really do work. I have two of them myself. They sound a lot better than the $3400 Legacy sub I used to have!

TP

[Gary]

Which front firing subs for $100.00 do you have?

Believe it or not, I use a regular speaker as a sub.... and a center channnel. It's for the upstairs DVD-A room. It's not bad! no complaints yet - I live in a town house.

For my "reference" system, I don't think a jerry-rigged system would work......

[Gary Freed]

Originally posted by danstone


I'm not trying to arbitrarily discredit this, but I'm hoping someone might be able to shed more light on why this is the case.

Bass response seems to be greatly affected by the acoustics of the room and the relative placement of the speakers and listener(s) within the room. Very often, the location for the best bass response is different than the location for best imaging/soundstaging.

Why wouldn't it be possible for seperate bass modules (in conjunction with acoustic treatments and even, possibly, some parametric equalization of the sub) to allow the placement flexibility needed to achieve the smoothest overall sound? Couldn't a sub (especially if available from the same manufacturer as your speakers) be designed to integrate with less than full range speakers in much the same way that full range speakers have seperate tweeters, woofers, crossovers, etc.?

I'm far from an audio expert, but I've certainly enjoyed reading some of Floyd Toole's (who is an audio expert) papers posted here:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

Likewise, I'll be very interested in reading the thoughts of other forum members who might be able to shed some further light on this.

Thanks,

Dan

Hi Dan,

Are you looking for a boomer or a natural sounding sub that integrates seamlessly.
I'm not going to back paddle but it depends on how much you are willing to
spend on a sub. Sure you can get a really musical sub but generally the
price point is way above what the majority of folks are willing to spend.
My sub retailed for $2,000. At that price point you are approaching the
musicality. As Steve pointed out above, it's the proper integration.

It's thequality of the amplification and the servo or lack of in the cone and the many other factors that come into play that make an accurate sounding sub.. Subs attempt to replicate the low frequencys that larger woofers will give you. It takes a lot of design knowhow and $$$ to replicate the sound accurately.

[Humorem]

Originally posted by Gary
Which front firing subs for $100.00 do you have?

Believe it or not, I use a regular speaker as a sub.... and a center channnel. It's for the upstairs DVD-A room. It's not bad! no complaints yet - I live in a town house.

For my "reference" system, I don't think a jerry-rigged system would work......

The ones I own have a KLH brand. They make a 12" model that sells at Costco for about $100. But it will sound terrible until you learn how to use it, following the advice I gave earlier, which may take a while. I experimented for at least 20 hours over a period of months before I figured out what I was doing, found the right interconnects, etc.

I also haven't heard any servos that worked to my ear. The servo would have to be amazingly fast to work right, a daunting proposition.

As for jerry-rigged systems, my speakers are set up to work very differently, and much better, from the way they were intended. I made many changes. One idea I even got from our fearless leader.

Don't be afraid to experiment. Big improvements come that way, as your ear gets trained to recognize the effects of the changes. That's how I learned, and I think there is no substitute for it. I took that knowledge and set up a number of other speaker systems, some with subs, some without, the owners of which were quite amazed. Audio is the most complicated and frustrating thing on the planet. This is why so few stereos really sound good -- because it's so damn hard to do!

TP

[Gary Freed]

Servo Controlled Sub