View Full Version : 440Mla vs. M97xE shootout (with comparison clips)
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hamburgerpimp
10-24-2006, 07:58 PM
Paul G
10-24-2006, 08:09 PM
On "Run for Your Life," cart 1 tracks with less distortion than cart 2.
Paul
Tetrack
10-24-2006, 08:25 PM
In all cases i liked clip 1 better. Down on the Street was close.
Grant
10-24-2006, 08:54 PM
I like the second clips in all the samples. The first ones are all too bright and thin, and hurt my ears. The second samples sound much fuller and smoother.
I do not hear distortion in any of the samples, and i'm playing the clips through my E-mu soundcard routed through my nome stereo reciever and played on speakers.
As the above poster said, "Down The Street" is very close.
OcdMan
10-24-2006, 09:12 PM
I like the second clips in all the samples. The first ones are all too bright and thin, and hurt my ears. The second samples sound much fuller and smoother.
I do not hear distortion in any of the samples, and i'm playing the clips through my E-mu soundcard routed through my nome stereo reciever and played on speakers.
As the above poster said, "Down The Street" is very close.
Grant, hard-core flat-frequency response fans like you and me would have to tweak the input resistance of the phono preamp to fully flatten out the response of the 440MLa. You should stick with the M97xE if tweaking isn't your idea of fun. For me, the soundstage of the M97xE is too narrow and I can not stand any amount of sibilance...so I'm stuck with tweaking the 440MLa. If only whoever owns the rights to Signet cartridges would ressurect the TK-10ML! :sigh:
Tetrack
10-24-2006, 09:22 PM
I'm just listening on headphones thru the PC, but i found the 2nd clips sounded a little dry. The 1st clips sound more liquid and smooth to me.
OcdMan
10-24-2006, 09:28 PM
I was just listening to the clips of Run For Your Life and can not stand how the M97xE pulls the channels in so far to the center. That's a huge downside. It's not an azimuth problem either, it is Shure's design. And the 440MLa is a little on the bright side, but the M97xE is on the dull side. I'd have to pick the 440MLa as the winner, but with qualifications: see my post above.
hamburgerpimp
10-24-2006, 09:41 PM
Some interesting replies so far. One more clip…
This Flight Tonight (cart 1) (
http://download.yousendit.com/E5BEC3BB3D69D4DF)
This Flight Tonight (cart 2) (
http://download.yousendit.com/7EE95C8B762568F2)
hamburgerpimp
10-24-2006, 09:59 PM
The first ones are all too bright and thin, and hurt my ears.Wow. I'm sorry that the first clips (cart #1) hurt your ears. Does anyone else feel this way?:confused:
Tetrack
10-24-2006, 10:10 PM
Ha! I had my headphones on the wrong way round. :o
Listened again, and i think Run For Your Life does sound bright on clip 1. The other clip 1s(of the original bunch) don't sound too bright to me and i prefer them. The 2nd clips sound drier which i don't like, by comparison.
OcdMan
10-24-2006, 10:11 PM
Mmm...I can't say I agree with that. The M97XE has no narrowing of the soundstage on my TT. And I don't have any problems with sibilance.
Just as an example....I'm guessing that the 2nd clip of Run for Your Life is the Shure cart....There is no bleeding of the right channel onto the left at all. It's perfectly separated. The same goes for the other clip.
It's not so much the total amount of channel leakage as measured in decibels. With Shure cartridges, the channel leakage is in-phase with the actual signal in the opposite channel. With most Audio-Technica cartridges, the channel leakage is out-of-phase with the actual signal in the other channel. That little "trick" has the effect of pushing the soundstage out beyond the normal limits of the 20 to 35 decibels of crosstalk which is typical of phono cartridges and into CD territory. As long as the azimuth is set properly, the out-of-phase channel leakage should be virtually inaudible and should actually contribute to the ability to localize instruments and vocals. At least, that's been my experience.
Regarding the Run For Your Life clip #2, there's a significant amount of leakage from the left channel in the right channel, but you're right, not from the right in the left. So that may actually be an azimuth issue. Even so, I've heard a number of different M97xE and even V15VxMR cartridges and they all sound too narrow for me personally. But I can certainly understand why many people love them. :thumbsup:
OcdMan
10-24-2006, 10:30 PM
The leakage on the right channel is because of the "white elephant" speaker that was used during overdubbing. It's on the Canadian CD as well.
As far as leakage in general is concerned, obviously you've given this a lot more thought than I have. But, IMO, lack of stereo separation on carts is really a non-issue with all but the least expensive carts.
Thanks, I'm aware of what happened during the recording of Run For Your Life but I was referring to the differences between clip 1 and clip 2. The crosstalk during the intro in the right channel of clip 2 is about 7 decibels louder than the crosstalk in clip 1. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. :)
Grant
10-24-2006, 11:17 PM
Grant, hard-core flat-frequency response fans like you and me would have to tweak the input resistance of the phono preamp to fully flatten out the response of the 440MLa. You should stick with the M97xE if tweaking isn't your idea of fun. For me, the soundstage of the M97xE is too narrow and I can not stand any amount of sibilance...so I'm stuck with tweaking the 440MLa. If only whoever owns the rights to Signet cartridges would ressurect the TK-10ML! :sigh: Yes, I love flat and uncolored frequency response, whatever that brings to the sound.
If I had a phono amp to tweak, I would try it.
In those samples, I also did not notice any increase in sibilence in the files I assume to be made with the Shure cart. They were both the same, actually. But, the high frequency rise in the AT cart made whatever was there worse to my ears.
I do not have a bright system.
I also suggest that what people hear in channel seperation is actually the exaggerated highs. See, I don't hear any narrowing of the soundstage on my TT. But, the sound of the samples made with the AT cart sound pinched to my ears.
Grant
10-24-2006, 11:21 PM
Wow. I'm sorry that the first clips (cart #1) hurt your ears. Does anyone else feel this way?:confused: If you play the first clip first, you tend to think the second one is dull. If you play the second one first, it becomes painfully clear...
digital
10-24-2006, 11:50 PM
Have focused on After the Goldrush as it’s a track that I am intimately familiar with – however, I cannot tell quite yet which cartridge might be which (I also own the Shure cartridge in question). Is it possible to get shorter clips, but say, in lossless .FLAC or .WAV file formats, perhaps with sustained tones such as a classical piece? Sorry to sound like a picky old fart, I do very much appreciate the work you have done for us thus far!
I just cannot tell if what I think I am hearing is due to a specific difference in tracks or spurious MP3 codec noise (though I understand that 320KB/s is said to be transparent).
Andrew D.
cdnav.com
Grant
10-25-2006, 12:08 AM
Thr good thing is that I am not familiar with any of the tracks except the Beatles one, so I come unbiased.
lukpac
10-25-2006, 05:51 AM
If I had a phono amp to tweak, I would try it.
If you have maybe $40, some time, and the ability to solder, you can make your own.
I also suggest that what people hear in channel seperation is actually the exaggerated highs. See, I don't hear any narrowing of the soundstage on my TT. But, the sound of the samples made with the AT cart sound pinched to my ears.
Listen to just the right channel in the intro of Run For Your Life. On sample 1, you only hear high frequency information (don't know if this is due to the LP or the mix). On sample 2, you can very clearly hear the bass. There's crosstalk there not on sample 1.
Now if somebody could do comparisons with an adjusted impedance...
Derek Gee
10-25-2006, 08:58 AM
These are arguably the two most often discussed cartridges here at the SH Forums. So which is better? Cart #1 or cart #2?
Cart #1 is the winner to my ears!
Derek
hamburgerpimp
10-25-2006, 09:12 AM
Listen to just the right channel in the intro of Run For Your Life. On sample 1, you only hear high frequency information (don't know if this is due to the LP or the mix). On sample 2, you can very clearly hear the bass. There's crosstalk there not on sample 1.
Well, as most of you have guessed by now, cart #1 is the AT and #2 is the Shure. The clips for Run For Your Life were taken from a 2-box UK Parlophone, but I just checked a different R.S. 2-box pressing (from the U.S. BC-13) and on this one, the Shure crossfades just as the AT does from the first clip. I also replayed the original 2-box using the Shure but nothing has changed. Weird.
keoki82
10-25-2006, 09:34 AM
I was just listening to the clips of Run For Your Life and can not stand how the M97xE pulls the channels in so far to the center. That's a huge downside. It's not an azimuth problem either, it is Shure's design. And the 440MLa is a little on the bright side, but the M97xE is on the dull side. I'd have to pick the 440MLa as the winner, but with qualifications: see my post above.
My employer's proxy will disallow me from listening to the needle drops at present, but as a M97xE owner, I tend to agree with Matt. I've been the proud owner of the AT440MLa for just under a week, and its ability to capture the listener with its immensely wide soundstage is very apparent. Matter of fact, I was simply blown away the other night while listening to an original Warner Bros.' Vogue pressing of Pet Clark's "I Couldn't Live Without Your Love."
While I agree that listening with the 440MLa grants a clear, crisp experience, I can't agree that it is overly bright, especially to the point where it would be painful, fatiguing, harsh or even glarish. I wiled away Monday night listening to 8 vinyl LPs back-to-back, all varying in pressing characteristics: some dull-sounding, some exceeding bright (or hot) pressings, some noisy, some new, etc. The results are encouraging. Not once was I fatigued to the point where I became annoyed/disgusted with the reproduction and had to turn the system off. In fact, near 2 AM, I could think of nothing that I'd want to do more than to keep listening to LPs until the sun came up. It was a delightful experience.
I've been told that the "a" revision of the AT440ML cartridge was AudioTechnica's correction to the "brightness" problem of its older counterpart. Ergo I will not call the MLa bright . . . it'll suffice to call it "engaging." Its channel seper, tracking and transparency are all first-rate for a cartridge in its class. I may still be in the honey-moon phase, but I now understand why this cart has received such positive reviews.
I will admit that when compared alongside, these two cartridges sound bright/dull, respectively. It is easy to feel that way when listening to one tune on a cartridge and then immediately comparing it on the other. The best comparison would be to listen to an entire album on one first, and then the whole album again on the other. This would give a better indication of the underlying differences in reproduction. I had made several quick MiniDisc transcriptions of M97xE playbacks before installing the 440MLa, and when I had compared them, the 97xE sounded as though I'd thrown a blanket over my Dynos, while the 440MLa sounded like a well-mastered CD. Not once did I feel as though someone "cranked the treble," as is usually the case with a cartridge that is prone to artificially colour an LP. My Grado green was notorious for that, and while I'm sure that higher-end Grado cartridges are more faithful and neutral in their reproduction, the Green was exceedingly bright, harsh and glarish, with a boosted low-end and little mid-range. Female vocalists even had an "asthmatic" quality. The Green was truly a coloured cartridge, and after one LP I'd have such a splitting headache from listener's fatigue that I'd want nothing more than to stop the turntable.
I feel that the AT440MLa shares none of these qualities. It is as faithful in its reproduction of vinyl as the M97xE, but simply more engaging and transparent.
keoki82
10-25-2006, 09:48 AM
...then again, I may have a defective M97xE. *shrugs*
hamburgerpimp
10-25-2006, 09:56 AM
Well, as most of you have guessed by now, cart #1 is the AT and #2 is the Shure. The clips for Run For Your Life were taken from a 2-box UK Parlophone, but I just checked a different R.S. 2-box pressing (from the U.S. BC-13) and on this one, the Shure crossfades just as the AT does from the first clip. I also replayed the original 2-box using the Shure but nothing has changed. Weird.
Ok, just gave this a second listen and the Shure channel separation is more extreme on the U.S. 2-box than on the U.K. 2-box, but still not as extreme as the AT on the U.K. 2-box. I'll get all these clips together, including a clip of the AT doing the U.S. 2-box.
First though, before I take off the Shure, any new suggestions for comparsion clips? Just sticking with Beatles, I have the (U.S.) BC-13, the second copy of R.S. that I've mentioned, different 2-boxes of For Sale & Abbey Road, Parlophone Red & Blues and a Horzu MMT...
OcdMan
10-25-2006, 10:18 AM
Still the "cross talk" is much clearer on the second clip. On the first clip it sounds distorted. Perhaps it's due to the phase process that you mention above. And listening to the Canadian CD the intro sounds pretty much like the second clip.
With most cartridges, the higher the frequency, the narrower the channel separation. I checked both clips with Cool Edit and, during the intro on the right channel, there's more treble than bass. With the first clip, for the most part, only the higher frequencies are loud enough to be heard so that may sound like distortion at first listen. With the second clip, more of the entire frequency spectrum is bleeding through although there is still more treble than bass relative to the left channel, so that may give the impression of it being less distorted. Of course, these are MP3 files, so who knows how that comes into play.
OcdMan
10-25-2006, 10:20 AM
Ok, just gave this a second listen and the Shure channel separation is more extreme on the U.S. 2-box than on the U.K. 2-box, but still not as extreme as the AT on the U.K. 2-box. I'll get all these clips together, including a clip of the AT doing the U.S. 2-box.
First though, before I take off the Shure, any new suggestions for comparsion clips? Just sticking with Beatles, I have the (U.S.) BC-13, the second copy of R.S. that I've mentioned, different 2-boxes of For Sale & Abbey Road, Parlophone Red & Blues and a Horzu MMT...
How about some Stawberry Fields Forever? And some other hot inner groove tracks? Thanks for your hard work, btw.
OcdMan
10-25-2006, 10:22 AM
In those samples, I also did not notice any increase in sibilence in the files I assume to be made with the Shure cart. They were both the same, actually. But, the high frequency rise in the AT cart made whatever was there worse to my ears.
I didn't notice any increase in sibilance on these clips either, so that's great.
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