Another techie Mastering Q?

[Jamie Tate]

I was talking to my friend Glen Pace tonight. He was telling me how he mastered an album he produced called "Gypsy" with Doug Sax. They got the EQ and compression settings and then played the tape backwards to go to another tape machine. Have you ever heard of this type of mastering technique? I've done the backwards compression thing before for wild guitar solos and for cool drum effects. He said he later incorporated Dolby SR into the process.

He also mentioned that every tape generation flips the polarity of the tune. That can't be right, can it?

[Steve Hoffman]

Oy Vay. As they say in Hollywood.

Well, some folks think that when copying Dolby A tapes unstretched, the best way to do it is backwards; the transients have more snap.

But actual mastering that way? I guess it's possible, but seems like a lot for very little if anything in return.

Polarity, what's that? If you record a song with five instruments in it and a vocal, chances are 1/2 will be "out" while the other half is "in". Just seems to work out that way, but you can't lose polarity when you make a tape copy.

[Ed Bishop]

Thanks, Jamie, for making my thread official....5 0 0 0 !

ED:cool:

[Steve Hoffman]

Heh. I don't even keep track of my post numbers (I might scare myself).

I'm just not a proper internet guy I guess. :p

[Ed Bishop]

Originally posted by Ed Bishop
Thanks, Jamie, for making my thread official....5 0 0 0 !

ED:cool:


FYI, for archivers: our Host's post #5000 is here. No big deal, except to some of us....

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
...but you can't lose polarity when you make a tape copy.

That's what I said... then I got a five minute dissertation on why I was wrong. I sit through the heavy opinions for the stories on people like Bones Howe, Bill Putnam, etc...

Thanks for your thoughts. :)

[Ed Bishop]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Heh. I don't even keep track of post numbers. I'm just not a proper internet guy I guess....:p

I know what you mean, but...it was funny. When I hit 500, I got my own thread, then 1000...when 2000 came nobody noticed. I don't really keep track either, but it was somewhere this evening, at 4994, that I realized...
sorry, had to do it, out of respect. I'm sorry I missed so much of this first year. Catching up is hard to do!

ED:cool:

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by Ed Bishop
Thanks, Jamie, for making my thread official....5 0 0 0 !

ED:cool:

Proud to pull my weight.:wave:

[sgraham]

Originally posted by yesman
They got the EQ and compression settings and then played the tape backwards to go to another tape machine. Have you ever heard of this type of mastering technique...

He also mentioned that every tape generation flips the polarity of the tune. That can't be right, can it?

I've heard of this, and tried it myself. Not sure I could tell the difference between the normal and the backwards copy, but there is at least the hint of a theory behind it.

The problem is analog magnetic tape has some inherent smearing of transients. The thought is that if you copy it backwards it would be sort of "re-smeared" in the opposite direction and so the copy would have better transients, or at least transients would be better preserved through multiple generations.

You'd need someone who understood magnetism and the nitty gritty of the recording process more thoroughly than I do to tell you if there's any validity to it. I have my doubts. I am not sure magnetic hysteresis effects are reversable like that, and I'm sure bandwidth restrictions are part of the problem, and not improved at all by changing directions.

[Grant]

When I hear an album where one element, usually the vocals with switched polarity, it drives me crazy.

I suppose this is done in order to make the vocal stand out more, or more 3D? Uggggh!

[Grant]

Originally posted by sgraham


I've heard of this, and tried it myself. Not sure I could tell the difference between the normal and the backwards copy, but there is at least the hint of a theory behind it.

The problem is analog magnetic tape has some inherent smearing of transients. The thought is that if you copy it backwards it would be sort of "re-smeared" in the opposite direction and so the copy would have better transients, or at least transients would be better preserved through multiple generations.

You'd need someone who understood magnetism and the nitty gritty of the recording process more thoroughly than I do to tell you if there's any validity to it. I have my doubts. I am not sure magnetic hysteresis effects are reversable like that, and I'm sure bandwidth restrictions are part of the problem, and not improved at all by changing directions.

In the digital world, where NR is concerned, many people swear by declicking and/or reducing noise after reversing the wave for the same reasons you describe. It inhibits the smearing of the transients.

I tried it once and didn't notice much of a diffference.

[Steve Hoffman]

Nor I.

Funny. If recording and mastering engineers wanted less smearing of transients, they should unpatch their limiters and compressors.....

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Grant
When I hear an album where one element, usually the vocals with switched polarity, it drives me crazy.

I suppose this is done in order to make the vocal stand out more, or more 3D? Uggggh!

I *think* what you and Jamie are talking about are two different things. I think what you're thinking of, Grant, is something like Sympathy For The Devil, where the piano is mixed out of phase in stereo - if you sum the channels to mono, the piano vanishes. Same thing (to a lesser extent) with the drums on the original mix of I Looked Away (on Layla).

That's not what Jamie is talking about. He's just talking about absolute phase - the copy (according to the people he talked to) might be out of phase with the original (if you were to sync them properly), but it would still be in phase with itself. That is, sum it to mono, and nothing would drop out.

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by lukpac
That's not what Jamie is talking about. He's just talking about absolute phase.

That's right Luke.

The only reason a copy would have a switched polarity is if there was an improper connection made like swapping pins 2 and 3 on an XLR connector. I don't know where this guy gets his info. but he's been around a long time and I enjoy the stories enough to overlook the "theories."