LP To CD Transfer Questions

[danstone]

I've got some vinyl recordings that most likely will never be released on CD. Consequently, I'd like to get them transferred to CD to preserve them. I haven't listened to any of my vinyl in quite some time and don't even currently own a turntable at all. I'm wondering if you could suggest a decent but fairly inexpensive turntable to use for such a project. I'm also wondering if it's possible to record straight from the turntable into a CD Recorder or whether it's easier/better to go from the turntable into a computer and then burn to CD? Do I need any additional hardware such as a phono adapter of some type?

Any information/advice is greatly appreciated. I tried using the search function to locate past threads on this but with the requirement for three characters or more for the search terms I don't seem to be able to perform a specific enough search to locate the relevant info.

Thanks,

Dan

[jkerr]

Since there's a number of people here that do this I'm sure you'll get lots of advice!

You will probably need a phono stage with your turntable, unless your reciever (or preamp) has one built in (probably not). There's a good selection of entry level turntables & phono stages that are fine for what you want. Though sorry I can't really recommend any in partuclar, just remembering others have had good results.

As far as standalone CD recorder vs PC w/CD burner, the cd recorder would be easier but you won't have editing capability (such as de-clicking). For the PC, you do need a better than avg sound card. In otherwords, NOT something like Creative Labs that's primarily a game card. And there's the learning curve of using editing software such as CoolEdit. Its not very hard but it is a bit more work than a standalone cd recorder.

If I were you, I'd decide on the turntable/phono stage first. Also invest in some cleaning supplies. Makes a world of difference. Once you're satisfied with your playback then start on the cd recording side. Doesn't matter if its PC based or not, the same vinyl playback can be used either way. Its best to get setup slowly, in stages, and you'll get much better results.

[sgraham]

Jeff's post is very sensible. I'll tell you this: If you start getting into declicking and otherwise correcting problems you'll likely find that the amount of time it takes to transfer your LPs skyrockets. For that reason alone it might make sense just to get a stand-alone unit, so you are *not* tempted to fiddle. On the other hand if you're like me, and many of the folks here, you'll find it hard to resist having the ability to fix thing.

[Jack Keck]

You WILL either need:

1. a turntable with a built-in pre-amp if you want to plug the tt straight into the soundcard OR

2. an amp/receiver with a phono stage. Plug the amp/receiver into the soundcard via the tape outputs.

[mudbone]

Or you could get a phono pre-amp that you stick in between the TT and sound card.

http://www.proaudioreview.com/par/november00/TerraTec-Web.shtml

mud-

[Grant]

Originally posted by sgraham
Jeff's post is very sensible. I'll tell you this: If you start getting into declicking and otherwise correcting problems you'll likely find that the amount of time it takes to transfer your LPs skyrockets. For that reason alone it might make sense just to get a stand-alone unit, so you are *not* tempted to fiddle. On the other hand if you're like me, and many of the folks here, you'll find it hard to resist having the ability to fix thing.

It typically takes me around a total of five hours from start to finish to do an LP transfer to CD-R using a PC and cleaning things up and mastering. All I do is de-click and usually de-noise. Declicking is the hardest part if you're anal like me, and NR takes a lot of experimentation to get it right.

When I start my processing, I think my steps through ahead of time.

If the LP was mastered well, there is usually little need to do more than cleanup and edit. If not, I make my "producer" calls, but never try to change the nature of the recordings.

I tend to view the LP, for my intents and purposes, as a master tape. If you view the LP as the final word, you won't want to "fiddle", as Ed puts it.

I know I do a good job because I am usually very satisfied when I revisit my work months later.

I use Cool Edit Pro 2.0 and sometimes Sound Forge 6.0 in my projects. I don't use a "pro" card but I use one that approches the quality of one, the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. I usually use either 44.1/32-bit, or 44.1/16-bit.

I withold any comments about my TT setup, except to say that I am so hapy I took out the Grado...

[sgraham]

I have a Turtle Beach sound card also, and I like it too. It's clearly not as quiet as a pro card, but compares surprisingly favorably with some of them in terms of how it sounds to me in other regards.

[danstone]

Thanks much for all the helpful information posted so far.

Originally posted by jkerr
As far as standalone CD recorder vs PC w/CD burner, the cd recorder would be easier but you won't have editing capability (such as de-clicking).

I definitely like/prefer the easy approach, but am willing to put in the time and effort if it makes a substantial, audible difference in the end result.

Let me expand a bit on what I'm trying to do. The vinyl that I'm trying to get transferred to CD has never even been played. For their collectability, I've picked up a variety of 45's & EP's by lesser known bands that I happen to like. Some of these contain songs that have never been released in any other format. As I know many other people have done, I merely want to have these songs archived in a convenient format I can listen to while preserving the vinyl as a collectible piece. I'd obviously like the end result to sound as good as possible, but I have no grand delusions of becoming a mastering engineer either.

If the vinyl is new, will I have many problems with having to de-click (keeping in mind that I will likely be using a fairly basic, inexpensive turntable? If I'm merely trying to capture the sound of the vinyl as best as possible on CD will I need to use Cool Edit, etc or is a straight copy the best way to go? Can I get decent sequencing of the tracks in multiple sessions without using a PC and some editing software?

I realize some of this is subjective, but I greatly respect the feedback from members of this forum who are much more knowledgeable on these topics than myself. As before, any feedback/help is welcome and appreciated.

Thanks again,

Dan

[Roscoe]

The above posts contain alot of good suggestions, and I'll throw in my 2 cents.

I started out simple about 3 years ago with a standalone CD Recorder (Phillips) and a Music Hall MMF-2 turntable. I just hooked up the MMF-2 to the phono inputs on my receiver (a mid-level Denon), and the CD Recorder to the tape inputs. Then it was basically like recording a cassette.

In the past year, I have made some upgrades. I upgraded to an MMF-7 and added a Monolithic phono stage. Also upgraded to a higher model Denon. Finally, I bought CoolEdit to perform de-clicking. I just the CD tracks to my hard drive, then do my tricks in CoolEdit. When I am happy with the results, I burn the tracks to a CD.

Here are some additional considerations for you:

Turntable:
You have indicated that you want something inexpensive. If you are buying new, the cheapest TT of acceptable quality that I am aware of is the MMF-2. You can usually find this for less than $300 if you shop around. Of course, there are countless options of you buy used.

Transfer Options:
As indicated above, a standalone CD recorder is the best bet if you are looking for the easiest solution. You still have the option to do audio cleanup by ripping the tracks to your hard drive. But it sounds like you are working with mint vinyl, so it may not be worth the effort for you.

This would be the cheapest, simplest setup to get you in business. If your preamp/receiver doesn't have a phone input, you can always buy a phono preamp (you can get one cheap at Radio Shack).

As far as de-clicking, that is entirely up to your ears. Assuming that your vinyl is mint or near mint, you shouldn't have too many clicks or pops. But if you do decide to pursue declicking, please keep in mind that this can be a very time consuming (but addictive) endeavor. I would recommend Cool Edit. Assuming you go the standalone CD recorder route, you will also need a CD burner on your computer. Then you can rip the tracks from the CD you created to hard drive, perform the cleanup, and burn the cleaned tracks to a fresh CD.

Good luck

[Grant]

Originally posted by sgraham
I have a Turtle Beach sound card also, and I like it too. It's clearly not as quiet as a pro card, but compares surprisingly favorably with some of them in terms of how it sounds to me in other regards.

It's why I proudly recommend the card to those who don't have a lot of cash. I just make sure I steer them clear of those Creative cards! The Santa Cruz card is a no-fuss, simple to use card with sound that almost rivals cards costing a hundred dollars more.

I betcha their new card records true 24-bit...

[Paul C.]

Well I can now throw in my own 2 cents worth. I recently bought a new Pentium 4 2.4Ghz computer, but held off buying a sound card, because i wanted to get something reasonably good. I thought I'd wait a while, and put off doing LP to CD transfers until I could afford a decent sound card, one that has proper RCA jacks and what have you.

So I've been happily buring CDs from my CD collection. My motherbaord has on-board sound (the AC97 chip), and I had just assumed that doing analog to digital conversions was not possible. Then, on a hunch, I looked on the net, ans it seems that it is possible. However, all I have is my trusty Musical Fidelity integrated amp - no separate preamp. I went out and bought a little RCA-to-minijack convertor. I thought for starters I'd try running cables from the RCA tape-out jacks on my amp to the stereo line-in miniplug on the back of my computer. I spun a record, opened up the little Windows Sound recorder thingy, and pressed record. Lo and behold, I got a .wav file at 16-bit 44Khz, and it sounded pretty good - the levels seemed OK.

After playing around a bit with the line-in level on the Windows mixing/volume control panel, I found that it was easy to overload the signal - if the line-in level was turned up too much, the wav file would have funny distortion. So then I installed a little program called LP Recorder (it's AUstra;lian, and I had a free version that was bundled with a PC magazine). A very simple program, but the good thing about it is that it has an auto-level switch, so that you can do a test transfer and it will adjust the level down based on signal peaks. When I captured using this software, I found that the line-in level was set at quite a low level.

The big test was how it would sound on my hifi. So I burnt a full track from my old US vinyl copy of Gaucho. I played it, and it sounded bloody fantastic. I did an a/b with the vinyl, and it compared very favourably. I am fortunate to have a good turntable, and I reckon this first stab at a transfer to CD gave results that sounded better than quite a few commercial CDs that I own. I also compared by burnt track with the Mofi version of Gaucho. The Mofi was a bit smotther and tighter - my turntable gives a slightly fuller bass sound, which came through on the copies track. But I could happily live with the sound that I was able to achieve. There was no distortion anywhere on the track, and the volume level was very acceptable - quite a bit louder than the Mofi.

Surface noise from the LP was transferred, and I really can't see a lot of point in getting rid of it, at least in this case.

So I am very happy to discover that all I needed to get decent Lp to CD transfers was a $5 adapter from the local electronics store, and a piece of software to help set the right level for recording. I didn't have to buy a special amp for equalisation. I won't be rushing out to buy a soundcard in the near future.

[Grant]

Paul, i'm glad you're happy with that on-board chip. I used one in my wife's old Compaq and I thought it was horrible!

I use Cool Edit and Sound Forge because I like to master my LPs and tapes.

[Paul C.]

Grant, I really was surprised by the quality of what I was able to burn to CD. I think one of the keys was being able to set an optimum recording level for the signal coming from my tape out sockets - I could detect no sign of clipping or distortion from having the level set too high.

In terms of the music, I felt that the stereo separation and imaging on the burnt CD track that I dubbed from vinyl were every bit the match of the vinyl itself. The only difference between vinyl and CD copy that I could detect was a slightly smoother top end on the vinyl, which i would expect. However, the copied track did not exhibit harshness at all, certainly nothing like I've felt a lot of commercial CDs display.

I am intrigued by the AC97 chip (I think it's a Realtek), and what codec it might use for doing A-D conversion. I have no idea how these things work. For the record, I purchased a Gigabyte motherboard for my computer (a recent Titan 667 with SIS648 chipset) - but I believe a lot, if not most onboard sound chips these days are the AC97.

I will certainly play around with a bit of mastering in CoolEdit and the like - if only to remove pops from some olde well-worn LPs.

[reidc]

Hello Danstone!

If you are going the route of transferring to your PC first- clearly the variations will be in the quality of soundcards.

I tried doing what you want to do- dumping audio from VHS HiFi(concerts), or dubbing lp's using Wavlab 3, and my Soundblaster Live Audio card(using the line input on the card from my receiver's tape out. For cabling- I used a cheap rca-patch cord that ended in a 1/8" stereo mini. From there is was 1/8" mini to 1/8" mini(stereo) into my PC- which is a distance of 15'.

I was happy with the setup more from a novelty perspective- the quality of the VHS transfer was phenominal. When it came to LP dubs- it was pretty lackluster. I found more niose and hum in my LP transfers.

At first- I thought it was extra hum from my turntable sources. Having tried 3 or 4 different table/cartridges- led me down the path of signal. The signal from my LP's was much lower than the input levels from VHS.

Would a better Phone EQ have helped? I really don't know. I figured it better to start at my soundcard, and listening to others here. The general concensus was that if I could not afford a "pro" card- get the best sounding card that approched that level. That card is the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz or other variants of its chipset. The Santa Cruz may not have the external breakout box(for easy connections) that the GameTheatre XP has, but the Santa Cruz had some better quality components on it.

I noticed a huge improvement in sound quality on my first LP dub. My input levels- I was able to increase them without adding MOST of the noise and hum that my SB-Live would have added.

Get the quietest card you can get your hands on.

Chris

[Cafe Jeff]

Hi,

I thought I would try taking some of my less than pristine vinyl records and drop them on CD, but so far my results have been miserable.

The setup:

Revox Linear Tracking Turntable.
Musical Fidelity XLPs
Creative Labs Soundblaster (not sure which one, but plan to upgrade either to Extigy of Hercules XP)
P3 866 Mhz
Cool Edit Pro
Monsoon Desktop Speakers

The sound is ok before I apply any denoising or declicking, but once I do, they become unlistenable. What are people using to denoise their recordings--the recordings that I am transfering are less than good. When I have good copies, I tend to play them more on my upstairs turntable.
Also, what do people suggest for upgrading the sound card. I want the simplest possible. Jeff

[EC3970]

I don't use Cool Edit to declick, I use DART (digital audio restoration technology).
But I think the technique is similar. You can't declick or denoise the entire file, you need to go through and listen and look and just fix that small instance in the wav.

[Cafe Jeff]

Hi,
These recordings are in fact very noisy. Some of them while looking very good, have obvious groove damage. I just want to make them listenable. I will look out for DART. Jeff

[EC3970]

Dart is an inexpensive software, $8.00 -$16.00, that is supposedly designed for cleaning up noisey LP's. I found it in our local microcenter computer store. I have never really gotten the hang of it except to clean up clicks. It does that really well.

http://www.dartpro.com

[Cafe Jeff]

Hi,
$8 to 16$ is a far cry from www.dartpro.com has advertised. I will keep a keen look out.
What I did see at the store was Audio Cleaning Lab by Magix. I wonder if anyone has tried this. It looks like it would be just the ticket. Jeff

[Grant]

Originally posted by Cafe Jeff
Hi,


Creative Labs Soundblaster (not sure which one, but plan to upgrade either to Extigy of Hercules XP)

The sound is ok before I apply any denoising or declicking, but once I do, they become unlistenable. What are people using to denoise their recordings--the recordings that I am transfering are less than good. When I have good copies, I tend to play them more on my upstairs turntable.
Also, what do people suggest for upgrading the sound card. I want the simplest possible. Jeff

First, don't get those GAMER cards!

Second, the de-clickers I use are Cool Edit Pro, Click Fix for Cool Edit, and Sound Forge NR. The very worst I have used are DCArt32, DART, and that "thing" that comes with CD Creator. I also manually de-click. It's also best to do de-clicking in higher bit-depths like 24 or 32-bit float.

In fact, I won't use anything that won't work with at least 24-bit files!

[Cafe Jeff]

Hi,
I don't want to split the thread...but... which card is suggested. The local shop here has the Hercules XP and the Extigy. They seem to have far more features than I would be interested in. Jeff

[EC3970]

The quality of DARTpro doesn't seem bad, but it is over complicated and a pain to use.
I've been meaning to get the Cool Edit, which seems to be the favorite on this board, and since I'm still running windows '98.

Now Grant, you can't say something's the worst without some elaboration.
Is it not letting me work 24 bit (I haven't noticed). Why am I going to like Cool Edit better?

I got the pro 98, really it was dirt cheap. If they want $99 for it...pass!

[Grant]

Originally posted by Cafe Jeff
Hi,
I don't want to split the thread...but... which card is suggested. The local shop here has the Hercules XP and the Extigy. They seem to have far more features than I would be interested in. Jeff

Go to another shop.

Creative uh, misrepresents it's products specs and features. This is well known. The Extigy and Audigy do NOT record 24-bit, either! Even their techs dodge this issue!

The Hercules XP might be a bit better, but it is still a GAMER card NOT made for musical recording.

[Grant]

Originally posted by EC3970
The quality of DARTpro doesn't seem bad, but it is over complicated and a pain to use.
I've been meaning to get the Cool Edit, which seems to be the favorite on this board, and since I'm still running windows '98.

Now Grant, you can't say something's the worst without some elaboration.
Is it not letting me work 24 bit (I haven't noticed). Why am I going to like Cool Edit better?

I got the pro 98, really it was dirt cheap. If they want $99 for it...pass!

What I don't understand is what you mean by DART pro being hard to use? If you want to declick, even manually, you can't just push a button and have all your clicks just magically dissapear without touching any music. You have to work to find the best settings. If you go manually, you still have to find those clicks and zap them without producing any artifacts.

Most de-clickers will dull the sound, cause distortion, or cause burbly effects. Some are better at keeping the sound pure than others. Some will remove fine crackling better than others. DART produces more of these negative results than the others in my experience. And, I am one of those who will take hours or days to declick something if I have to. Cool Edit's de-clicker is no picknick, either! It's the hardest to configure and the slowest, but when tweaked just right, it will do wonders. Sometimes you have to use two or three de-clickers plus declicking manually. If you get some of those records that are almost beyond cleaning, a bit of sound degredation to me is better than nothing at all, short of finding a better copy.

For users of Cool Edit, there is a complicated declick method called the Younglove method which can work in those desperate cases. It is basically inverting the polarity of the clicks and canceling them out along with the noise. I have restored a few otherwise hopeless cases with this method, though it does leave some undesierable artifacts and/or exaggerated effects of too much NR, but for those 45s or LPs that have been tossed around too much and played on everything imaginable, it can save those irreplaceble tunes. But you have to have patience.

Cool Edit is a fantastic audio editor, and the pro version can do virtually anything you can do in a pro studio in the digital software domain.

Since I usually process in 32-bit float, I have no use for a 16-bit only de-clicker.

[Gardo]

I've been doing a fair number of needle-drops lately, so I'll chime in:

Grant and Steve are right about the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. Grant was the one who originally directed me there--for which many thanks! I'd used Creative before: the Live! and the Audigy. The improvement in sound quality when I went to the Santa Cruz was immediately audible--and significant. The high end is smoother, and the soundstage is much wider and more spacious. Even the bass is better: more defined and articulate. So definitely get the Santa Cruz. CompUSA has them on sale occasionally. Well worth even full retail, which is about 80.00.

I will manually declick if the pops are during quiet spots and are very high amplitude. Generally speaking, I do not do NR or re-eq. I've yet to hear NR that doesn't color the sound, though Sonic Foundry's is pretty good, as is Algorithmix's. I don't re-eq because I don't trust the digital EQ in Sound Forge for anything as delicate as I'd want to do. Every now and then I will cut the bass under 40hz if the LP has a lot of rumble.

I've come to the conclusion that surface noise doesn't bother me if I don't think about it and if there's nothing to be done about it. I've also decided to get as many LPs onto CD-R as possible, so with my collection that means quick work. I've been pleased to be able to hear so many old favorites with new ears since I've gotten the Santa Cruz. And I've always relied on my V15VMR to tell me what the record really sounds like....:D