Anti Skating Adjustment Question...

[Jamie Tate]

I have a VPI table/arm and am adjusting the anti skating due to increased distortion in the right channel. I have the anti skate device add-on and it's helping but I'm still having issues when I play the test tracks from Hi-Fi News Test LP. All but the first of four tracks produce distortion in both(!) channels. The first track plays cleanly.

My question, is this a fault of the cartridge (Lyra Argo i), the JMW 9 arm, is it even possible to play theses tracks without distortion or is it because I'm still not dialed in yet?

Thanks for any thoughts.




BTW, my Wallyskater is on order. Only 11 more months before I should get it. :D

[Pinknik]

Good luck on the skater order, Jamie. :) You know, I've finally got all my Wally tools, and I need to set aside a weekend, or week?, to tweek my table. I have that test LP as well, so I'd be curious to hear what happens there. I guess you noticed that Michael Fremer recommended leaving the weight off of that anti-skate device entirely? I'll let you know how my progress goes. Last time I tried to play those tracks, I think only the first one or two played well, while the rest were wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh in one channel or the other. I think the last couple probably are hotter than most of the music you'll hear. Harry Weisfield (sp?) is not very high on test records or the anti-skate device anyway, so isn't it comforting that there's so much agreement out there among the experts? :)

[mcow1]

Distortion as in mistracking? You really shouldn't need that much anti-skate on a VPI table. I just use the wire twist Harry recommends and mine sounds sweet. Are you sure you have the azimuth adusted correctly?

[OcdMan]

My question, is this a fault of the cartridge (Lyra Argo i), the JMW 9 arm, is it even possible to play theses tracks without distortion or is it because I'm still not dialed in yet?

It's definitely possible to track all 4 of the test tracks. I can do it with my AT440ML. But some people insist these tracks are useless and, of course, others swear by their usefulness.

I've been finding that adjusting the anti-skating so that I can play the first 3 tracks cleanly sounds best with regular music. I've always been afraid that turning up the skating compensation so my cartridge could handle the 4th track cleanly would turn out to be far too much compensation on music of an average volume.

[Vinyl-Addict]

Jamie, Verify tracking force and err on the high side of the spec.
Re-check cartridge alignment.
The test LP has tracks on both sides. Use the side that has bias tracks at the beginning and end, with 1 in the center.
Adjust any distortion to so it's even on both channels.:)

[Jamie Tate]

I guess you noticed that Michael Fremer recommended leaving the weight off of that anti-skate device entirely?

Yeah, I saw that too. Using it without the weight is the only way to keep the arm from swinging back to the right.

[Jamie Tate]

Adjust any distortion to so it's even on both channels.:)
That's what I did. I figure if it's going to distort I'd like it to distort in both channels for an even image. :laugh:

[Jamie Tate]

It's definitely possible to track all 4 of the test tracks.

Ah Ha! I knoew it. So, does that lead me to believe it's my cart, arm or my adjustments?

But some people insist these tracks are useless and, of course, others swear by their usefulness.

I saw Michael Fremer doesn't put much value on them.

[Jamie Tate]

Are you sure you have the azimuth adusted correctly?

As close as I can tell. I checked it electrically with volt meter.

[Jamie Tate]

I've finally got all my Wally tools,

How long did it take you to get them?

I sent him quite a large order and confirmation he got my check. I've heard nothing.

[Pinknik]

I had a Wallytractor from music direct and the anti-skate from Ebay, both fairly quickly. The Wally scale I got from Wally in October of last year at the Denver Audio show, as well as the device to determine VTA. At that time I placed an order for the Skater and analog shop, and I got them in July, I believe. If it was sooner, it was June. So, 8 or 9 months-ish.

[OcdMan]

I saw Michael Fremer doesn't put much value on them.

Yes, it seems like the jury has been out on this subject a very long time. But to me, really hot tracks never sound quite right if the cartridge can't track band 3 properly. I've done some A/B comparisons using Audition and I can always tell. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to that type of distortion...or I have a good imagination. Still, I like to know the cartridge is up to the task if it needs to be and that it's not damaging anything from repeated playings.

One thing I'd try to do is to somehow find out if the Argo is supposed to handle track 3 and maybe 4. If it should and yours doesn't, that's a real problem. :sigh:

[Jamie Tate]

One thing I'd try to do is to somehow find out if the Argo is supposed to handle track 3 and maybe 4. If it should and yours doesn't, that's a real problem. :sigh:

I'd like to know that. If it can't I should look into another cart.

[OcdMan]

As close as I can tell. I checked it electrically with volt meter.

There seems to be opposing schools of thought on azimuth too. Some say shoot for equal output, other say try for maximum channel separation, and still others say the cantilever should appear to be perpendicular to the record surface when viewed from the front.

The best result I've had so far has been with using a small mirror that is about the thickness of an average LP. I put the mirror on the platter mat and adjust the azimuth until the cantilever appears to be coming straight up from it's mirror image. You'll need a flashlight and a good magnifying lens.

I used to adjust for best combined channel separation but tracking ability suffered and it just wasn't worth it so I decided to do the above. The difference in channel separation wasn't even audible and the lower distortion was obvious. Groove noise went down too.

[MikeyH]

I had a couple of MC cartridges, and neither would really hold on to the higher inner band tracks on my test disc. However, never noticed any problem on music discs, even heavy choral ones.

The opposite was true of some of my MM carts - sail through the tests, can't do massed strings without the image collapsing. My Decca won't do anything except the lowest band, but is fine on most music discs.

If you look at Shure's own trackability 'profile' on their test discs, the v15 series has best trackability at the frequency of the record, not elsewhere. Designed to match.

If it is the cartridge limitation, then increasing up to the max vtf won't cure it. If it does, then use that VTF if you're happy (there are other issues with setting VTF than tracking, but if that's what you're after then max is good)

[Jamie Tate]

I sent him quite a large order and confirmation he got my check. I've heard nothing.

Still... nothing. Just checking if Wally died. Anyone know?

[EddieVanHalen]

This is how I did it: get a mono record (I have plenty of them from my father), if you are using an A/V receiver set it to Pro-Logic. When all the signal from the left and right channels collapses to the center channel you got it correct.

[Jeff Wong]

Jamie - Apparently, you're not alone:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/1698.html

[vanmeterannie]

Just my two cents worth, but if you've done as much as you have already I think likely what you are hearing is the stylus' ability to negotiate the groove in full glory. I don't have the test record you have, but in comparing my 440ML (not a) to Shure V15-VMR, for instance, using other test records, the Shure beats the 440 on the types of tracking and skating tests you're describing every time set up the same way on the same table but in actual listening the difference isn't that big, although it's noticable if listening critically. Again, just my opinion.

[John Moschella]

I just went through an interesting set up with the HiFi test record bias tracks. I bought a second table for my living room, a P3/RB300 that I just mounted a new Benz Silver on. Its a high output MC. Anyway, this combo sailed (and I mean sailed) through the 4-bands with a pretty wide range of acceptable settings for the anti-skate.

Right after that I tweaked my main LP rig which is a LP12/Ittok/Benz M2. I had just adjusted the suspension and wanted to re-check everything. Benz recommends 1.7-1.8 as the optimum VTF with 2.0 as the max. I had it set to 1.85 and could only get band 3 with no distortion. No way I could set band 4. Anyway I though it sounded great. Then I tried lowering the VTF to about 1.7 and checked the test LP. I was able to set band 4 quite easily. ????
Only listened to this arrangement for one night but my initial impressions were that it sounded better at 1.85.

[Jamie Tate]

Since I started this thread I've talked with a few others who were having similar issues with tracking error and it turned out all of us had VPI tonearms(!). My new tonearm is being installed at Graham so hopefully it will cure my tracking problems.

[Jamie Tate]

Jamie - Apparently, you're not alone:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/1698.html

Interesting!

[Randy W]

Jamie - Apparently, you're not alone:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/1698.html

I just stopped payment on my check for a Wallytractor that was promised to be "in the mail" four times over the past two months.

I wish I would have done a search on this forum four months ago when I ordered it...

Caveat Emptor.

[Jamie Tate]

I just talked with Wally. He's a very nice, personable guy. He said he was flooded with orders so maybe you have to call to get your order back on track.

[Pinknik]

I just talked with Wally. He's a very nice, personable guy. He said he was flooded with orders so maybe you have to call to get your order back on track.

He is very nice, but he really needs a secretary or staff or something to get his stuff in order. Good tools, but keep pestering him until you get them. So, Jamie, did the Graham arm solve your tracking issues?

Greg