So which Sinatra CD's to get - Concepts or EMI set?

[Chris Desjardin]

Assuming money is no object (which is always not true), which set is better - the Concepts set or the EMI 21 CD set? I want the best sound I can get. We have some Sinatra experts here, so I hope they can help.

[GuyDon]

I own both and without a doubt the "Concepts" box is the better of two. Not only for the improved sound, but also the overall packaging and the beautiful hardcover book that is included. The EMI set for all intents comes in a shoe box (pretty shotty) and the discs do not sport the new 1999 mastering. The EMI set has a few more songs, but only because it includes a few compilation albums that include non-album singles. However, if you also purchase the "Complete Capitol Singles Collection" boxset you will have 99.9% of Frank's Capitol output (I believe an outtake of "The Song is You" is the only thing that will be missing).

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: guydon ]

[feinstein]

Guydon wrote:

[The EMI set has a few more songs, but only because it includes a few compilation albums that include non-album singles. However, if you also purchase the "Complete Capitol Singles Collection" boxset you will have 99.9% of Frank's Capitol output (I believe an outtake of "The Song is You" is the only thing that will be missing).


I reply:
By purchasing "Concepts" and the 4 disc "Capitol Singles Collection" (available for about $20.00 from BMG Record club), plus the 3 disc set "Franks Sinatra- The Capitol Years", you do get a very complete collection of Frank's Capitol output, both in very fine sound (much superior IMHO to the British EMI set). However, you'll still be missing a few items from Frank's Capitol era...

1) The soundtracks from High Society, Pal Joey, and Can-Can which are only available on a 3 CD import from EMI-Australia (often available at "Collectors Choice Music".

2) The song "If You Are But A Dream" from the album "This Is Sinatra Volume II". This is included in the British EMI CD set since that album is included. You can also get this in an EMI Music For Pleasure import "This Is Frank Sinatra 1953-57"

3) The mono version of "Well Did You Evah" which is longer in duration than the stereo version included on the Singles Collection.

4) Studio Chatter from the "High Hopes" session included on Capitol USA's budget "Frank Sinatra Capitol Collectors Series" compilation.

5) A rare and completely different take of "The Song Is You" which can be found on the out-of-print-since-1993 Capitol CD "All the Way".

Note that buying the British EMI set is even worse since you'll lose out on a lot more singles and EP's than with the Concepts/Singles Colllection/Capitol Years purchase. Note that when the new "Concepts" first came out, it was available at Amazon for $165. I think that its much more expensive now.

Also, note that the new "Concepts" does NOT use the 1998-1999 20 bit "Artist of the Century" remasters which were HORRID sounding. Instead, Bob Norberg remastered those 8 albums anew for the 2000 release of "Concepts". All of Norberg's work on the new "Concepts" is fabulous except for.....

For some reason however, the master of "Swingin' Lovers" must be damaged or something because it sounds HORRIBLE on the "Concepts" box set. Seek out MSFL's version of this album instead. I might be persuaded to make CD copies of it for you if you ask nicely!!!!

Also, there are guys (E-mail me privately for contact information) who can provide you with some of the most wonderful outtake material from Frank's Capitol era on bootleg CD's.

Speaking of bootlegs, the Reprise album "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" was beautifully recorded on a 3 track Ampex 300 series deck. Unfortunately, this master was never used for producing the albums or CD's and was lost. However, a bootleg CD called "The Master In His Studio" has a complete set of mono session materials from "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" which reveals what that album COULD have sounded like if the original masters had been used. FABULOUS.....

[Arne]

The title is "The Master In His Workshop", actually. The sound is fabulous - it has "Zing! Went The Strings Of My Heart" in true High Fidelity (the very same version that sounds like shellack on all official Reprise releases!)

Arne

[Arne]

The title is "The Master In His Workshop", actually. The sound is fabulous - it has "Zing! Went The Strings Of My Heart" in true High Fidelity (the very same version that sounds like shellack on all official Reprise releases!)

Arne

[Chris Desjardin]

I just bought the Concepts set. There are a few on ebay sealed for $105-$110. Is the MFSL Songs for Swingin' Lovers really much better? I love that album. To the person who offered a cd-r copy if I asked nicely, here it is: "Pretty Please?". Please email me privately and let me know at cdesjardins@mediaone.net

[Steve Hoffman]

Hey Fredric J. Einstein,

I don't want to destroy an urban legand, but the original three-track tape of Frank Sinatra's "Ring A Ding Ding" album is alive and well at Reprise.

I've used the tape several times. Sounds wonderful.

The original stereo and mono mixes are still there too. They have way too much slap echo on them and are too compressed for my taste though. But, these reels were used to cut the original LP's of "Ring A Ding Ding".

The Three-track is nice and dry. Sounds great!

Remember, United had TWO Three-track machines and two mono machines going at the same time....

[Matt]

Does this mean the reissue of the Concepts box used the correct tapes? And the MFSL CD of "Songs For Swingin' Lovers", too?

[RDK]

Okay, now i'm really confused...

There seem to be two versions of the Concepts box: the first (?) came in a wooden box and a newer version that's packaged more traditionally. Am I right? But these two otherwise identical sets use different masterings? Then which is the one to get?
Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Ray

[Matt]

Confusing is an understatement. You have one poster who says the current "20 and 24-bit remasters" are better than everything out there including the MFSL releases, you have people who say the new Concepts box is the best thing, you have an exception from one that the MFSL CD of "Songs For Swingin' Lovers" is actually the best, then there's this old information I got from early this year that says all the newer stuff came from wrong masters, and that supposedly includes the MFSL gold CD.

I guess it comes down to trusting your ears, and one thing's for sure: the EMI box isn't the best out there. Tested this myself, but I haven't heard the new Concepts box which supposedly uses better, different mastering than the individual issues.

This is one of those cases where I just look for the old vinyl issues to save me the trouble.

[Chris Desjardin]

Good idea. I just bought several mint original 1950's mono pressings on ebay. These will be transferred to cd-r and might become the ones I listen to the most. We shall see how everything turns out.

[Chris Desjardin]

Confusine is not the word. Look at the reviews from Amazon.com about the EMI box set:

Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000FDCY/qid=1008356701/sr=1-50/ref=sr_1_66_50/002-1484690-3248052)

[Chris Desjardin]

OOPS! I meant to say Confusing. I really should check for typos before I post!

[Matt]

Chris,

All-Music Guide even has a review on the EMI box and lavishes mucho praises on that thing.

If you ever listen to it, just jump to "Nice N' Easy" and you'll immediately know why this can't be the best thing out there. There is a TON of echo, overwhelmingly so, on the EMI box version of it. It's not on the original vinyl or even the 1991 CD; both are dry as a bone.

The stand-alone issues of the new remasters from 1998 (the rest are coming this January) sound terrible compared to the older CD issues, but even the older CD issues aren't the best for various reasons (the stereo remixes aren't that great, much less better than the original mono versions, and the mono CD's have a bit of digital echo added).

I don't have the new Concepts box but it definitely will be something to check out (give us a word on what you think).

The MFSL CD, I used to have, but since sold it. I still have a CD-R of it somewhere in an unmarked jewel case; I remember it sounding better than the 1998 remaster, but not as good as the vinyl. It may be the best version on CD, but like I said, I was told it came from the bad tape, which is why I didn't bother keeping it in rotation.

[tomcat]

I'm really confused, too... "Masters or not masters, or which masters" seem to be the question...
What about "The Capitol Years" 3-CD box from 1990 which claim to be digitally mastered (!?) from "the original full track master session tapes (mono)" and (mixed from?) the "original three track master session tapes (ADD) by Larry Walsh? Right or wrong?
And what about "The Reprise Collection", also from 1990, which states "Digital mastering and Remixes by Lee Herschberg"? Masters or not masters?
And last, but not least: Is the MFSL CD good or bad (read "from the right or the wrong masters").
This master tape issue is really a mess!
Thomas

[RDK]

Adding to the mess, the Capitol/Sinatra website lists the Jan. '02 remasters as being the same ones on the "new" (2000) Concepts box. It seems funny to me that the remasters in the Concepts box (from 2000) and its stand-alone discs are different from the 1998-99 "Artist of the century" remasters. I, too, have stayed away from the newer remasters as i've read here that they're mostly inferior to the discs from the early 1990s.
Oh well, that's what the original lps are for i guess...

[Matt]

I think the Jan. 2002 remasters cover only those albums that have yet to be reissued in their stand-alone forms (like "No One Cares," etc.), not those that have been reissued/remastered in 1998, which would follow the pattern of the first wave CD's when some were issued in 1987 and then in 1991.

[RDK]

Originally posted by Camarillo:

The stand-alone issues of the new remasters from 1998 (the rest are coming this January) sound terrible compared to the older CD issues, but even the older CD issues aren't the best for various reasons (the stereo remixes aren't that great, much less better than the original mono versions, and the mono CD's have a bit of digital echo added).


I understand (i think :) ) that the jan. 2002 remasters cover the discs from the 2000 Concept box that haven't yet been released individually. But aren't these "terrible" sounding 1998 remasters that you refer to the same ones that are already in the Concepts box? Or were only half of the discs in the 2000 Concepts box newly remastered at the time (those that are coming out in Jan)? Or am i still wrong and confused?

Someone earlier stated that they thought the Concept box remasters were better than the 1998 remasters, implying that they are indeed different. Yes? No?

Also, how many different versions are there of the Concepts box? The so-called "good" one supposedly came out in 2000, but the ones now being offered on Ebay are said to be dated 1998. The "wooden box" version came out, i believe, in the early '90s. Are these all different remasters (20-bit, 24-bit, etc)?

Ray

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: RDK ]

[Matt]

Sorry about that, man, I misunderstood what you wrote and thought there was a misunderstanding... :D

Anyway, yeah, all the press releases I see about the Concepts box indicated them to contain the same mastering on the stand-alones from 1998, too, but people here are saying it's different.

As for how many box sets, I think there's only the older one and one newer one; I think people on ebay and other places just get the year all mixed up.

In case anyone is on Columbia House, they offer it through their club for $132.98 (though there's also shipping and tax to be paid as well). You should get a lot of bonus points for the purchase, enough to get one or two free CD's.

[feinstein]

Steve Hoffman wrote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
[I don't want to destroy an urban legand, but the original three-track tape of Frank Sinatra's "Ring A Ding Ding" album is alive and well at Reprise.

I've used the tape several times. Sounds wonderful.


I reply:

Steve Hoffman... Although I have no reason to doubt you, I'll quote from Charles Granata (a Sinatra "insider" who was involved in most of the Columbia Sinatra remasters etc) writes the following enlightening text in his book "Sessions With Sinatra". This book is a MUST HAVE for anyone who is interested in the golden age of audio....

Begin quote:
Unfortunately, this casual attitude also extended to post-production mixing that would result in the final records. As a result, when compared to the astonishingly beautiful and consistant sound quality of the Capitol recordings, many of Sinatra's Reprise efforts pale. The biggest problems with the singer's recordings from this period is their uneven sound quality. One album might be marred by mild distortion, excess reverb, and abundance of tape hiss, uneven mixing and balance; the next could be an audio delight. This first album "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" was also the first weak link in a chain. The recent discovery of copies of master tapes, missing from the Reprise vaults for years, reveals some clues regarding the less-than-perfect sonics of this landmark recording and underscores the importance of meticulous mixing and mastering.


Since its initial release in March, 1961, "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" has been plagued by a brittle, hissy, echoey sound. For many years, Sinatra aficionados believed that the original recordings were inferior, as these problems were noticable in the first pressings of the album (both mono and stereo). A study of the aforementioned session tapes (my comment: these are the ones on the bootleg "A Master In His Workshop") contradicts this theory. To date, two CD versions have been released. The first, now OOP, retained the sonic deficiencies described above. The 20-bit digitally remastered version issued in 1998 is a marked improvement, but still lacks the crispness of the mono tapes (on the bootleg) now in circulation.

While the lost tape copies are mono, and therefore prevent any evaluation of the stereo mix, they are startingly clear: essentially dry (no reverb), with very distinct separation among the instruments of the orchestra, and a remarkable "presence" or "liveness" that is noticably absent on the original issues, indicating that all of the inferior sound arose during the post-production mixing, after the original recordings were made.

"Of all the original Reprise recordings, few sounded great" concurs Alan Sides. "The ones that sound the best are those that were mixed directly to two-track, like the original "Robin and the Seven Hoods" and "Strangers In the Night". But if you go back to the original 3 tracks, they sound so good they can scare you! A lot of the problems DID come from the mixdowns, and I know this because I have heard some of these three-tracks and they are amazing!"

[feinstein]

The newest "Concepts" box set was totally freshly 24 bit remastered by Bob Norberg. The remasterings of the 1998-99 "Artist of the Century" 20 bit series are different (and inferior) to the same material on the new "Concepts". They even carry different remastering credits (NOT Norberg in 6 out of 8 cases).