Turtle Beach Santa Cruz

[reidc]

Yes!
A few months ago- I began a little project of putting some of my vinyl to my PC, and ultimately on CD. It was just for things I had always liked, and pieces I believed would never be commercially released on CD.

Anyway- upon first trying it out- I used a SB-Live OEM soundcard and Wavelab to do the recording. What I got was real low input levels, and a fair amount of hum.

After some discussion here- a few folks highly regarded the Santa Cruz for its musical qualities over most all CONSUMER grade cards.

I finally decided to go buy one, and visited my quasi-local Comp-USA in Nashua NH yesterday ready to fork over the $80($99 list) for the retail package.

What a deal they had! I first saw the sign on the display that said FREE SANTA CRUZ! Then the fine print that said if you bought the Altec Lansing 5.1 speakers. I figured you'd have to fork over the entire $$$$ for the speakers AND the soundcard, and then file for the $80 rebate--WRONG!

Here is the deal- buy the Altec Lansing #251 5.1 speakers for $99, and get a $60 instant rebate(as in at the cash register), and a rebate coupon for the $19.99.

For only $20 more than I was willing to pay- I got a set of 5.1 speakers(which I did not have). Sweet.

Anyway- I cued up my Blood, Sweat, and Tears New City LP last night, and began recording again. The difference in recording levels is like night and day- a HUGE increase- to the point where I don't need to jack everything to the max. I no-longer have the increased background noise between tracks. I am very happy with this purchase!


Chris

[Grant]

The card isn't quite audiophile but VERY close for the price. It is an 18-bit card which really just means a more accurate 16-bits. It utilizes 20-bit conversion for playback, and has very low jitter specs. The frequency response is pretty flat for a card in this range, and it is full range. It doesn't record at 20 or 24-bit but it does real fine for LP to CD conversions, especially if you process your audio at 32-bit float. The card's internal sample rate conversion is said to be very transparent, so it need not be a concern. The Santa Cruz card has worked for me for the last year.

The THD on those Soundblaster cards is terrible, and curiously, the high end drops OFF at 17,000kHz. I mean it DIES DEAD! That means the music recorded with it will sound drier and edgier. The new Audigy isn't much better.

[mudbone]

Grant, what soundcard would you recommend?

Mud-

[RetroSmith]

>>>>If you want superior performance from your Audio Card, you really do have to spend a few bucks. No 99$ card is really going to sound the same as say, the GINA 24 bit card. The noise floor, hum rejection and total overall sound quality is night and day. You need the better card to make the comparison, then you really hear the difference.

On top of that, the GINA 24 lets you use the "lightpipe" connector on an ADAT machine to transfer 8 tracks of audio at once into a Cool Edit Pro or some other editor. Thats one serious time saver!!

[mudbone]

Mikey, how much???

(the KEY question :D )

Mud-

[RetroSmith]

>>>Hey Mudbone. Sorry about hat, I SHOULD have listd some prices.

I believe you can get the GINA 24 bit card for around 300$$.

I can tell you this....it is worth every penny. When I do a LP to CDR transfer with the GINA, it sounds like a professional studio transfer. You hear things in the final Cd that you wont if you use a cheap card. In Ausio Cards, you DO get what you pay for.

A little side note. If your budget is tight, get a used GINA 20 bit cad (the older one) on EBAY. I used that card for 3 years and its marvelous. I really switched to the GINa 24 to take advantage of the ADAT feature, as I have several 8 track ADATS to remix. For me it was worth the extra cash, but for others folks uses, the 30 bit card is probably fine. I love the GINA family!!

Hope this helps.

Mikey

[mudbone]

Originally posted by mikey5967
>>>Hey Mudbone. Sorry about hat, I SHOULD have listd some prices.

I believe you can get the GINA 24 bit card for around 300$$.

Hope this helps.

Mikey

Thanks for the info, Mikey.

You're a good man:cool:

Mud-

[RetroSmith]

<<
:))

[mudbone]

Originally posted by mikey5967
<<
:))

Yep, to each his own, I say.


(I have a few DVD-A's but don't tell anyone)

Mud-

[Grant]

Mikey IS correct about the Echo card, but Redic sounded like he was looking for something to fit his budget, and for transferring LPs, the Santa Cruz works fine. It is NOT a $.99 card.

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Grant
The card isn't quite audiophile but VERY close for the price. It is an 18-bit card which really just means a more accurate 16-bits. It utilizes 20-bit conversion for playback, and has very low jitter specs. The frequency response is pretty flat for a card in this range, and it is full range. It doesn't record at 20 or 24-bit but it does real fine for LP to CD conversions, especially if you process your audio at 32-bit float. The card's internal sample rate conversion is said to be very transparent, so it need not be a concern. The Santa Cruz card has worked for me for the last year.

The THD on those Soundblaster cards is terrible, and curiously, the high end drops OFF at 17,000kHz. I mean it DIES DEAD! That means the music recorded with it will sound drier and edgier. The new Audigy isn't much better.

I had an 18-bit Turtle Beach card for awhile and liked the sound of it, but couldn't get it to hold sync between MIDI and digital audio tracks in Voyetra's "Digital Orchestrator Plus," so I took the card back.

I'm using a Soundblaster Audigy now. It sounds good, not great, but suits my needs at present. Where did you get the information about the brickwall filter and the THD specs, Grant? The specs I've seen for the Audigy look much better than that.

Gardo

[Grant]

Gardo, I got my specs for the TB card at www.pcavtech.com

Creative (the makers of the "Live" and Audigy cards) have a habit and long history of either misrepresenting their specs or outright lying. The proof is all in the listening.

Many people get the Creative cards for the soundfonts only. I don't do MIDI so it is not a concern of mine.

I'm sure the Audigy sounds nice on playback, but if you want to record, forget it! They are still primarily made for gamers and people who's primary concern is mp3, and we both know how terrible they can sound!

[mudbone]

Grant, what card do you recommend for transferring LPs. That's all I want to do. No MIDI, gaming, etc.

Mud-

[Grant]

Well, that Santa Cruz card is a start...

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Grant
Gardo, I got my specs for the TB card at www.pcavtech.com

Creative (the makers of the "Live" and Audigy cards) have a habit and long history of either misrepresenting their specs or outright lying. The proof is all in the listening.

Many people get the Creative cards for the soundfonts only. I don't do MIDI so it is not a concern of mine.

I'm sure the Audigy sounds nice on playback, but if you want to record, forget it! They are still primarily made for gamers and people who's primary concern is mp3, and we both know how terrible they can sound!

Thanks, Grant. I've spent a fair amount of time at Arnie (Arny?) Kruger's site myself, and it's certainly a goldmine of hard info on these cards. I've also noticed that some of the Creative cards rate pretty highly and others don't; it seems to depend a good deal on the chipset. I wish Kruger would do a test of the Audigy; I'd like to know the results. I found one set of test results at Tom's Hardware that looked a little strange in the frequency response department--very odd undulations, of a kind I've never seen before with audio cards. I wonder if they had the reverb on.

I do use MIDI quite a bit, both standalone and for home studio work with Cakewalk. SoundFonts are a lovely piece of technology for home jammers on a budget. The Audigy also has pretty sweet reverb, chorus, and other digital effects. Playback does sound pretty good to me, certainly competitive with the other mid-line 16-bit CD players in my house--but it's no match for the budget SACD player I just bought.

The Santa Cruz specs do look impressive; I really appreciate the recommendation. Since I've been hanging out here, I've been doing more transfers of vinyl to CD, so I'm tempted to try the Santa Cruz to see if there's an upgrade there....

Gardo

[mudbone]

Gardo, like yourself I've done some transfers but want to get things "a little bit better". I think for now I'll give the Santa Cruz a try.

and Grant, thanks for the information.
Mud-

[reidc]

Originally posted by Grant
Mikey IS correct about the Echo card, but Redic sounded like he was looking for something to fit his budget, and for transferring LPs, the Santa Cruz works fine. It is NOT a $.99 card.


Hey Guys-
I knew from past discussions that the ECHO cards were out there- albeit rather steeply$$. Heck- I had even checked Ebay a while back.

I had read on the aforementioned web site about the different rankings of cards, and I flat out did NOT want to go Creative- due to mentioned bloated software and driver issues.

I had been reading on the Hercules Gametheater XP as well, which also included a breakout box, and the same chipset as the Santa Cruz. The Santa Cruz used a wee bit better components I think. I learned a lot over on Hardforums.com in the audio section.

My budget was for $75 to $100, and this fit it perfectly. The deal I ended up getting was the sweet part($20 more got me a set of Altec 5.1 speakers).

So far- it suits my needs.



Chris

[RetroSmith]

>>>Chris, best of luck with it. I'm sure it will be OK for your needs, and hell, later on you can always upgrade if you decide to....

Mikey

[Grant]

Mikey, one day, when i'm able, I also plan to upgrade. I have been eyeing an M Audio Delta or an Echo Mia. If I came into some real money.

[Gardo]

Okay, got my Santa Cruz and like the quality very much. A quick check with an LP dub does seem to sound a good bit better than the Audigy. Nice, nice, nice. But now I'm trying to get CD-SPDIF in to work. Did the "click on advanced tab and enable digital in" trick, and now I get sound, but with lotsa snaps and crackles and panning back and forth (?!?!). What gives? Any advice, oh Santa Cruz sages?

Gardo

[Gardo]

Well, until Grant gets here with his SC experience, here's what I've learned over the last few hours (stayed up WAY too late last night):

I haven't done a redub from LP to A/B the SC recording quality with the Audigy's, but my impression so far is that the SC is doing a MUCH better job on the recording end. The audio seems to retain much more air, depth, and sound-stage width from LP to CD than it did with the Audigy. This I like, very much. Digital audio playback also seems to be better: more detailed, full, and involving. I'd say the improvement here is at least 25%. Well worth the bucks (more on this in a bit).

There are a few nuisances. The Audigy had no trouble accepting the SPDIF signal from my DVD-ROM drive. On the SC I get snaps and pops and panning. Apparently this is a problem with signal levels, as there seems to be no standard for CD- or DVD-ROM SPDIF outputs. At any rate, the SC chokes on the SPDIF signal from the DVD-ROM drive. This means that for this drive I have to take the analog out from its lousy D/A converters and feed it back into the A/D converters on the soundcard. My other drive, a CD-RW, does just fine with the SC's SPDIF-in, so I'm using it as my prime CD playback drive. Nothing wrong with this, but it's a workaround I didn't need to do before.

Another nuisance is the documentation, which is pretty sparse. I had to go online to the Turtle Beach knowledge base to even figure out how to turn on the SPDIF input!

Another minor nuisance is the mixer. The Audigy mixer had a fader for "CD Digital" and another fader for "CD." The SC mixer has a fader for "CD," which can be either be analog or SPDIF in, but not both (I think). That's less intuitive, I think.

But these are fairly minor nuisances, and the sound is quite a bit better, so I'm very happy. I'm also happy to have the speakers, not because they're hi-fi (they aren't) but because they're very handy. A portable 5.1 rig will be just the thing for certain educational and church applications. And the kids are delighted to have surround sound for their games.

By the way, my local CompUSA matched a local competitor's price on the Altec speakers, so I paid 79.99 for the speakers AND the soundcard. Smokin'.

Thanks to Grant and everyone else for the fine recommendation. Now back to the needle drops!

Gardo

[Grant]

Gardo, I haven't bothered to try the digital connections either. I don't normally play my CDs through the computer anyway, so... I can play CDs on the computer digitally, as Cool Edit 2.0 and SF 6.0 support this.

You are right. The sound of SC recordings are smooth and detailed. The noise floor registers at -87db in Cool Edit, so it is very suitable for LP to CD transfers, especially if you are like me and your phono preamp measures a S/N of...guess what? 87db! LPs don't give you much of anything past 60db, anyway. But if you do more that LPs and cassette or consumer reel-to-reel, you will need to look for a 24-bit card.

I don't know what software you plan to use for processing your audio, if you do, but I recommend you process at 32-bit float, then dither down to 16-bit. If you plan to go straight to CD-R, just do 16-bit.

[Gardo]

I like to have a straight SPDIF in to compare D/A converters on computer soundcards. Otherwise, I'm hearing an extra conversion, which makes comparison difficult. I also like to hear the best CD playback possible when I'm listening on headphones late at night while I'm doing other things on the computer.

I use Sound Forge 5.0. I believe it uses 32-bit floating-point for all its internal calculations. A very nice program for all sorts of audio fun.

Thanks again for the rec.

Gardo

[Grant]

Originally posted by Gardo
I like to have a straight SPDIF in to compare D/A converters on computer soundcards. Otherwise, I'm hearing an extra conversion, which makes comparison difficult. I also like to hear the best CD playback possible when I'm listening on headphones late at night while I'm doing other things on the computer.

I use Sound Forge 5.0. I believe it uses 32-bit floating-point for all its internal calculations. A very nice program for all sorts of audio fun.

Thanks again for the rec.

Gardo

I have 5.0 as well, and I moved up to 6.0 as soon as I was able to. I find 5.0 is very slow. Besides, 6.0 is lightning fast, faster than Cool Edit, and works more like Cool Edit, which is the program I prefer for editing.

I would never have botherd with Sound Forge if they had not wised up and went to 32-bit processing. Actually, SF now does internal 64-bit processing.

[reidc]

Originally posted by Gardo


By the way, my local CompUSA matched a local competitor's price on the Altec speakers, so I paid 79.99 for the speakers AND the soundcard. Smokin'.



Gardo

Wow Gardo- that is a smokin deal! Still good at "normal" rebate though.


Chris