My Generation to be remixed/reissued

[lukpac]

From http://www.sheltalmy.com/whotapes.htm

It's with great pleasure that I can announce that an agreement has been reached with MCA and The Who to acquire my original 3-track tapes for re-mixing into stereo. It is also part of the agreement that I will be doing the re-mixing and supervise the mastering.

"The Who Sings My Generation",* will be a multiple CD package to include "My Generation", "Anyhow Anyway Anywhere", and "I Can't Explain" among the 24 songs on the 3-track tapes and in addition many of the outtakes and talkback chat will be included in the package.* The release is scheduled for next spring, 2002.

There are many people who worked hard to make this happen, and I want to give special thanks to Bill Waddell and Andy Mckaie of MCA and especially to Pete Townshend, without whom I don't think this would have been possible.

It's been a long and arduous trip to get here and I'm glad to finally arrive.* Thanks to all of you who have waited patiently, and sometimes "not so patiently"!

Cheers!

Shel

Now, if we could get Steve to master it...

[GuyDon]

I just read the same thing at Shel's site and came here to post it. All I can say is FINALLY!

[Unknown]

How much is Shel getting for this? Must be a small fortune...

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Patrick M:
How much is Shel getting for this? Must be a small fortune...

No idea...I'd bet it's nowhere near the $500k or $1M he was asking, though...

[mikenyc]

I think we are hoping for too much here...so
don't get rid of your bootlegs yet!

What will be the extent of involvement of Townshend and his brother-in-law ?

If it's ANYTHING like it has been, this is opportunity is going to be blown by the WHO, also! But at least Talmy will make something out of it...and really go into obscurity for good.

I can't wait until the catfight that is sure to ensue after it's released, as these,still
pissed off at each other parties, start urinating on each other!

It's going to be embarassing for EVERYONE and we, the Fans, are going to lose again!

Maybe it will destroy the Myth of the Who as some kind of music group...FOREVER !

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: mikenyc ]

[Andrew]

WHEN copies actually arrive in the shops, THEN I'll believe it. (Then we'll spend the next six months debating the entire package.) :rolleyes:

[mikenyc]

I just can't get over that it's going to be another disaster remaster from the Who. It's amazing how they have continually screwed up their catalog so much, starting from the MCA days.

I was truly amazed at the first CD issue of "Who's Next" when I could hear them moving around the mike. But with each consecutive release they just can't get it together for some reason! They should have given all of their tapes to Steve and DCC or Sundazed, and they would have been ahead of the game !

[lukpac]

Originally posted by mikenyc:
I just can't get over that it's going to be another disaster remaster from the Who. It's amazing how they have continually screwed up their catalog so much, starting from the MCA days.

The fact that Talmy is going to be in charge gives me hope. Hopefully Jon Astley won't be allowed to touch the stuff at all.

Wait and hear...

[mikenyc]

Luke, If Townshend isn't bored yet with his self-appointed role as Group Archivist, maybe...but the record speaks for itself. Once these two guys get into a studio and over work one of their masterpieces, it's deja vu all over again with upsetting their Fans over the small issues, overlooking their incompetence and that they pull this ALL of the time. I'm sure they are going to say the tapes are not in good shape and they had to overdub some or all of the parts, etc.!

Everyone should be happy with the definitive version of the recordings that are already out there, and pass on purchasing this just of General Principles...whether it's good or not.

It's message sending time for Pete and Company...if they haven't gotten the hint yet, they are rapidly wearing out their welcome with Fans. What's also interesting is that they are getting tired of their Fans too, as evidenced with all of the carping from Pete about bootleg comparisons with "Live at Leeds".

They are going to do what they want to with the release, including alot of stupid things they know are wrong, and now that this fabled release is finally coming out, what is he going to complain about this time ?

[Unknown]

I agree with Luke on this one. Why bitch about a release that doesn't even exist yet? If you don't want it, don't buy it. I am very optimistic about the potential here, and I think Luke is too. Shel would appear to be in charge. Try having an open mind. I have a feeling he will do a good job. Time will tell. If the currently available (crappy) CD makes you happy, keep it, and try not to rain on anyone else's parade in the meantime.

[Dave]

Hey why don't we send Townshend and co. a burn of the Canadian Who's Next to show them what really sounds good and tell these people to hire Steve or has anyone already done this? Or is it even a possibility? :)

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Dave ]

[lukpac]

Originally posted by mikenyc:
Once these two guys get into a studio and over work one of their masterpieces, it's deja vu all over again with upsetting their Fans over the small issues, overlooking their incompetence and that they pull this ALL of the time.

Have you missed something? *Talmy* is in charge of this one. Now, I'm not saying there's *no* chance it might be messed up, but the chances are a lot better than with Astley in charge.

Give it a chance. If it's bad, you'll probably hear about it from me. If not, pick it up - no CD exists with all of this stuff in great sound, and only 6 of the tracks have ever shown up in stereo (none of the hits).

[Sckott]

I agree with Pat and Luke. Let's wait until it's hung to dry before we start throwing veggies at it.

I think Shel Talmy held on to this one for not only the money, but the chance to have deep involvement into this. I'll pay the $3.95 for the portion of duct tape used on the wrists and mouth of Astley as the project is underway.

This will prove more of an earache to Pete, as I'm sure the reviews will be much favorable than the rest of the Who project spearheaded by Astley. I know Who fans wish many mortal wounds on Astley and Pete's not exactly happy about the Who fans in this regard.

I still say it's politics, some things even Pete can't step around. Anyway, I'm glad to look forward to this work.

[Douglas]

Thank God this material is going to come out again. Their best album, locked up in jail for years. I hope they put out the "try to walk forward/feet walk back" version of Substitute as a bonus track.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by jlomax:
I hope they put out the "try to walk forward/feet walk back" version of Substitute as a bonus track.

That would be nice, but keep in mind that Substitute wasn't produced by Talmy. Another one I'd like to hear in stereo...

FWIW, someone said they e-mailed Talmy, and he told them that Astley will *not* be doing the mastering. Thank god.

One thing to note - the last I knew, Talmy didn't have a multitrack for the hit version of Anyway Anyhow Anywhere, only the alt/French EP version. Hopefully if they can't find a multitrack for the hit they'll at least include a first generation mono mix (in addition to a stereo remix of the EP version).

[Unknown]

If this is going to be a 2 disc set, it ought to be possible to do stereo remixes of all 24 songs, plus mono remixes of the previously released tracks.

Although a handful of tracks were released in true stereo mixes, I suspect that stereo was the last thing on Talmy's mind when he recorded them. It would be a real shame if, at the end of the day, the only thing were got were stereo mixes. I suspect that mono remixes would be much fuller sounding, and should be considerably more dynamic than the previously available mono mixes previously heard on CD, which come from 2nd or 3rd generation tapes (possibly higher).

[lukpac]

Originally posted by David Olstein:
If this is going to be a 2 disc set, it ought to be possible to do stereo remixes of all 24 songs, plus mono remixes of the previously released tracks.

Eh...I don't really see the point behind that. If any mono mixes are going to be issued (which I doubt they are), they should be the originals. Remixing to mono (when you are already remixing to stereo) is just silly. Like with Pet Sounds - why would you do a mono remix?

[Unknown]

Actually, there are two good reasons to remix to mono.

First, it might be hard to make a decent stereo remix. If all Talmy has are three-track session tapes, with vocals on one track, primary instrumental backing (drums, bass, guitar) on a second track, and instrumental overdubs (percussion, guitar solo) on the third track, you could do a stereo remix, but it would leave much to be desired, since the bulk of the instrumentation will be in mono and there would be no way to adjust the balance of those instruments. If, on the other hand, Talmy recorded the instruments on three-track and them bounced the instruments down to one-track on a second three-track tape, and the original three-track instrumental backing tape was preserved, it would be possible to make a decent stereo mix. But is this what Talmy has?

Second, a mono remix could sound substantially better than the original mono versions while still remaining faithful to the original sound (much more faithful than a stereo remix). Due to the technical limitations (or perceived technical limitations) of the LP format, it is likely that when the Who recordings were originally mixed down to mono, there was compression added along with a roll of of both the high and low frequecies. If the three-track tapes were remixed today, you could have a mono mix that has the same instrumental balance and instrumental/vocal balance as the original mix (something that would be virtually impossible to replicate with a stereo remix), but with more dynamic range and a wider frequency response.

This certainly wouldn't be the first time mono remixes were done. I know that Bill Inglot created new mono mixes of the early Sonny and Cher recordings using the original three-track session tapes, and did so for precisely the reasons listed above.

[Unknown]

An additional point:

The comparison Luke draws to Pet Sounds may not be appropriate here. Creating a new mono mix from all the Pet Sounds instrumental and vocal backing tapes would be pointless because (a) the original master tapes for the Pet Sounds mono mix still exists (although I've heard there may be more than one released mix for Wouldn't it Be Nice) and, if properly mastered, sounds pretty good and (b) the original mono mix remains the definitive artistic statement by Brian Wilson, who had both the time and the resources to prepare the mix he wanted.

Does Shel Talmy have the original full-track masters or simply the three-track sesssion tapes? It is my understanding that all of the previous CD releases of this material have been mastered from second or third generation tapes (and possibly higher). If Shel Talmy has the original full-track mono mix master tapes and they are in good condition, then sure, it isn't necessary to do mono remixes. In fact, I'd prefer that the original mixes be used, warts and all. But if Talmy doesn't have the original masters, then any new mono mixes ought to sound considerably better than anything that's been previously available, and would probably have a better instrument/vocal balance than the stereo remixes. In addition, creating a new mono mix from a three track session tape with vocals on one track, instrumental back on the second track and instrumental overdubs on the third track wouldn't involve anywhere near the complexity of the Pet Sounds stereo remix, and any remixing would be done by the original producer, Shel Talmy.

Look, the stereo mixes could be interesting. They may allow you to hear certain instruments more clearly than you can in a mono mix. But stereo mixes created from three track session tapes can have some pretty serious shortcomings. And I'd rather have a powerful mono mix than a cheesy stereo mix any day. But I emphasize that with 24 songs and two discs, there ought to be enough room for both. Ideally, they'll present the original album in its mono mix, mastered from the original master tapes, followed by the original non-album single tracks produced my Shel Talmy, mastered from the original single masters. And then any remaining space on the first disc and all of the second disc, would be filled with stereo remixes.

[lukpac]

A few notes:

- I'm pretty certain bouncing was done, but I don't know exactly what or how. I do know that in some cases there are different vocal tracks using the same backing...

- the general layout of the tapes (as far as I can gather) is: drums/bass/piano, lead guitar, vocals/guitar overdubs. The lead guitar was cut live with the backing track...

- I really don't know what tapes have been used for the various releases. I've heard "high generation" a number of times, but it seems pretty unsubstantiated. I'd bet the masters are somewhere, either with Talmy or The Who...

- I would think that Talmy would be keeping things like "punch" in mind when doing the new stereo mixes. Certainly balance as well. I'm sure he's said to himself "I need to make these new stereo mixes as good as the mono originals"...

- There's more than simply 24 songs. In some cases there are multiple takes/versions of a song. I believe the session tapes run 2:45 or so...

I have to wonder if *any* mono mixes will be on the set. I'd hope they'd include the single version of Anyway Anyhow Anywhere...

[Unknown]

Talmy says this is going to be a multi-disc set. I've assumed this meant it would be a two disc set, but it sounds like they could easily make this a three disc set. I suppose its out of the question for them to do a relatively straightforwrad single disc reissue and a separate, exhaustive "sessions" box set.

It would be a real shame if they didn't include any mono mixes, especially if Talmy has the original mono master tapes. I'm sure those tapes must sound better than what's currently available on CD.

[lukpac]

One more thing - the MCA CD of My Generation really doesn't sound too bad. At least my Canadian copy doesn't. I just got it a few months ago and was expecting the worst - it really doesn't sound too bad at all. Other than Circles, that is (which is pretty bad).

A very well recorded album...

[lukpac]

Originally posted by David Olstein:
I'm sure those tapes must sound better than what's currently available on CD.

Keep in mind the sound varies a lot from CD to CD. Some sound pretty good, others don't at all. The singles on the most recent best-of are all processed stereo. *Most* CDs use a really bad copy of I Can't Explain, while the version on MBBB sounds a heck of a lot better.

I think the right tapes exist - it's just finding/using them and doing it right.

[lukpac]

Here's some info about what's on the tapes themselves, from a fellow on the Who list who's heard a (mono) copy of them:

I've had the fortunate privilege of listening to these tapes. There's about 2 hours and 45 minutes of material, which includes released versions of the songs, outtakes of the same, and one previously unreleased song (see track listing #49 below). The sound quality of all of this material is outstanding . .

Track listing of master tapes:

Note: the information in the brackets [] is relevant to the take and mix #. Not every track had one described (or I might not have been able to distinguish what they were saying). The comments below the tracks reflect the description that I wrote down as I was listening to the music. There may be some errors as I didn't actually a/b these versions to each other (in the case of multiple takes), or the released versions (except with "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere").

1. "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" [???]
No backing vocals. Otherwise appears to be French EP version.

2. "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" [mix 2]
Sounds similar, but different to French EP version.

3. "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" [mix 1, take 1]
Seems to be the French EP version

4. "Out In The Street" [mix 2, final, take 1]
Different drumming and guitar parts (complete song)

5. "Out In The Street" [mix 1, take 2]
Stops shortly after start.

6. "Out In The Street" [3]
Stops shortly after start.

7. "Out In The Street" [4]
About =BE of the song, then stopped.

8. "Out In The Street" [6]
Stopped almost immediately after start.

9. "Out In The Street" [7]
Cool "feedback" guitar part. (complete song)

10. "Out In The Street" [???]
Seems to be LP version, but backing vocals are mixed down.

11. "Lubie" [???]
Seems to be the same as on "Who's Missing".

12. "Lubie" [Final Mix]
Much higher guitar and much lower drums than above version. Pete Townshend would like this one!

13. "Please, Please, Please [???]
Vocals upfront mix.

14. "Please, Please, Please [mix 1, take 1]
Seems to be the same as the LP version.

15. "Heatwave" [mix 2, take 4]
A bit more upbeat than the "Two's Missing" version.

16. "Heatwave" [mix 2, take 4]
Seems to be the same as the "Two's Missing" version. Some tape wobble at
song's end.

17. "Heatwave" [mix 2, take 1]
Compressed mix.

18. "Heatwave" [edit take 1]
Edited version. Starts near end of song.

19. "Heatwave" [2 edit]
Edited verson. Starts near end of song.

20. "I Don't Mind" [take 1, mix 1]
Roger banter before song start. Blusier version than LP. Vocal changes and
different ending as well.

21. "I Don't Mind" [mix 2, take 1]
Different mix of take 1 (above).

22. "Shout And Shimmy" [???]
Similar/Same as released version.

23. "Shout And Shimmy" [???]
Different backing vocals and no backing vocals in other parts.

24. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [???]
No backing vocals.

25. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [take 2]
No backing vocals. Longer ending than released version.

26. "Daddy Rolling Stone" [take 2, mix final]
This version has backing vocals and longer ending than released version(s).

27. "Motor-Vating" ("Two's Missing" title, "Motoring") [Take 1]
No backing vocals. Voice on tape says, "Motor-Vating, take 1"]

28. "Motor-Vating" [mix 2, take 1]
Compressed mix with backing vocals.

29. "It's Not True" [3]
LP version.

30. "La La La Lies" [take 4]
LP version.

31. "Much Too Much" [???]
LP version.

32. "The Good's Gone" [4]
LP version with extended guitar ending.

33. "Anytime You Want Me" [mix 2, take 1]
False start.

34. "Anytime You Want Me" [2]
Different vocal track and Roger sings end part in a higher octave.

35. "Anytime You Want Me" [take 3]
Roger forgets lyrics and song stops. Some band banter follows. Tape wobble
in the middle.

36. "Anytime You Want Me" [take 4]
Roger singing ending in higher octave.

37. "Anytime You Want Me" [mix 1, take 1]
Same/Similar to released version.

38. "Anytime You Want Me" [take 1, mix 2]
Same/Similar to released version.

39. "Anytime You Want Me" [???]
Edited ending only.

40. "Anytime You Want Me" [take 2]
Cut short after start. Pete Townshend discusses Roger's vocal part.

41. "Leaving Here" [3]
Same as "Who's Missing" version.

42. "I'm A Man" [mix 1, take 1]
2nd =BD of the song is instrumental only.

43. I'm A Man [take 2]
Same/similar to "My Generation" LP version.

44. "My Generation" [???]
Seems slightly different to released version.

45. "The Kids Are Alright" [???]
Same/similar to released version.

46. "My Generation" [???]
Same/similar to released version.

47. "The Kids Are Alright" [take 1]
Pete tunes his guitar before start. Compressed vocal mix.

48. "Circles" (released as "Instant Party") [mix 1, take 4]
Same/similar to "Who Sings My Generation" version, Dutch LP "Instant Party"=

version and Euro & Japanese "b" side versions of "A Legal Matter".

49. "Instant Party Mixture" (unreleased song) [???]
The demo of this song, originally titled as "Instant Party" appeared on a bootleg joined with "La La La Lies" and titled (incorrectly) as "Party & Lies". The Who version features Roger on lead vocals and includes John Entwistle using his "Summertime Blues" voice as part of the backing vocals. The song ends with a "Johnny Be Good" instrumental jam at the end.

50. "The Ox" [take 1]
Similar/Same as released version. Voice before song says, "Instrumental, take 1."

51. "A Legal Matter" [take 5]
Similar/Same as released version, but with a longer ending.

52. "Lubie" [take 1]
No backing vocals.

53. "Out In The Street" [first mix, 2]
Seems to be a different take than released version.

54. "I Can't Explain" [???]
Same as released version, but much cleaner sound.

55. "Bald Headed Woman" [???]
Same as released version, but much cleaner sound and extended ending.

-wf

Note that the correct title is "Motoring", not "Motor-vating"

[Unknown]

Originally posted by Luke Pacholski:
Keep in mind the sound varies a lot from CD to CD. Some sound pretty good, others don't at all. The singles on the most recent best-of are all processed stereo. *Most* CDs use a really bad copy of I Can't Explain, while the version on MBBB sounds a heck of a lot better.

What is the pedigree of the sources used on Max RnB (i.e., for the tracks from the 1st LP)?

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Patrick M ]