Legacy Speaker question for Steve

[Pinknik]

Hi, Steve. I was just curious, do the smaller (i.e. less expensive) Legacy speakers capture the essential ingredients soundwise that led you to use the Focus and Whisper as your reference? And what led you to them, anyway? Do you constantly audition speakers, cables, etc? Thanks for any opinions and tidbits.

P.S. Rick Rubin has Legacy Focus speakers and big tube amps. You guys should talk re-issues on DCC :)

[Unknown]

Originally posted by Pinknik:
P.S. Rick Rubin has Legacy Focus speakers and big tube amps. You guys should talk re-issues on DCC :)

Have you seen the Black Crowes 'Behind the Music'? They make RR sound like something less than a sweetheart.

[Pinknik]

But he's an audiophile leaning less than sweetheart. Work with me here :)

I haven't seen that BTM, but I don't doubt Rick has his bad side. Don't we all?

[Unknown]

Originally posted by Pinknik:
I haven't seen that BTM, but I don't doubt Rick has his bad side. Don't we all?

According to the band, he wanted them to be the "Kobb Kounty Krows" and wear overalls with straws hanging out of their teeth. They didn't go for it.

He also didn't put the "Executive Producer: Rick Rubin" credit on their first album until it had sold a million copies.

After relating that, Rich Robinson very sarcastically says, "Thanks. You f***ing a**hole."

There's another great moment when the Crowes got kicked off the ZZ Top tour for saying their performance was not sponsored by Budweiser.

I love those guys. Just got "Lions" last week.

[Steve Hoffman]

Pinknik,

The smaller Legacy speakers do not match up to the big ones, tone wise. Forget it.

I prefer big speakers over little 'uns, 'cause I like that big sound...Little speakers (unless very good), sound like, well, midget music. Great soundstaging though. But the soundstage isn't everything. Tonality is most important to me, as I have stated in print many times.

The laws of physics cannot be changed. Big speaker, big sound. Little speaker...

What led me to Legacy speakers? A record dealer had a pair and they reminded me of old Urei Universal Audio studio monitors, except with top end. So, we contacted Bill D. at Legacy...

I'm using a pair of Legacy Focus' at the moment in the mastering room. Cutsomized a bit. Beautiful tone (as my late Grandmother used to say about her old Zenith standup 78 RPM machine).

Yes, I constantly audition speakers, cables, amps, preamps, phono stages, CD players, interconnects, speaker wire, tweaks, etc. It can get confusing after a while. Sometimes we are swayed by style over sound....

If it sounds good to you, and "it don't cost much" as John Lennon once said, get it and be happy...

:)

[Unknown]

For Steve:

How big is big for "big" sound? Any floorstander?

I know I've bugged you about "tone" before, but bear with me again. You've said before that correct tonality means what you hear on the master tape comes out sounding the same on the CD, e.g. Like aural WYSIWYG.

Now, in the case of speakers, what exactly does tonality mean? I can appreciate the idea that things "sound right," but you have to have some basis for comparison, right?

And what does correct tonality in a loudspear amount to? Flat response (or as close as possible)? Sonically pleasing deviations from flat response?

In other words, what can a big speaker do that a little one can't? Besides the obvious problems of low-frequency extension.

Thanks.

[Steve Hoffman]

Monsieur Moss,

I like big speakers. The way they used to make them in the good old days before high powered amps and watt sucking bookshelf jobs.

Now, I have more than one system. My mastering system is accurate, boring and very useful to me in my work. I don't listen in there for pleasure. Not that it doesn't sound good--- It does, but it's too accurate to be any fun.

In some of my other systems, I can spread out a little. My Tannoys have a 15" woofer with a hi-freq. horn sticking out of the middle... It just sounds BIG. Instruments have WEIGHT. Very important for me. I don't want recordings to sound like recordings. I want them to sound as real as possible. Now, I don't mean as loud as possible. But maybe you know what I mean, eh? I like a sound that, while you are in the other room, it sounds like The Doors are playing in THIS room.

So, mainly, it's a question of weight. I always use this example:

Go into a music store. Go over to the drum section. Find a good expensive cymbal, and hit it with a drum stick. Notice the complex sound? Now, really whack it! Wow, it has weight and sounds like it means business. If your speakers can't reproduce this sound (and most can't), then, the illusion is just that, an illusion; it ain't real.

SO, if one takes a CD of this lone cymbal recording and tries it out with various speakers, only a big fat 15" or 12" (in the right box) can give the weight that this cymbal has in real life. It sounds nothing like the little thin small sound one hears on many systems.

Now, add the weight of a piano, bass, and snare, and you have an acoustic recording that needs weight to sound real....Add electric instruments, and...Well you see my point.

Now, people, not everyone can afford toys like this. I understand that. But, I found my Tannoys in a thrift shop for 50 dollars. And the inexpensive Dyna Mark III's I used to have, ROCKED with them. So, it's not impossible, even if you are on a budget.

Now, lest we forget, NOTHING reproduces the sound of the human voice like small good speakers. But, when the orchestra comes in, the illusion falls apart.

[Unknown]

Thanks, Steve. I have too many damn questions, I know, but just one more and I promise I'll stop for at least 12 hours. Here goes. Your post made me think of this.

The following is a quote from Ty Tabor:

"actually, that's not entirely so. the sustain has nothing to do with the mic
level. when you hit a cymbal, the vibration caused by the stick striking the
cymbal must 'travel' freely. a cymbal is designed to handle this dissapation
evenly up to a point. at a certain point of force, the cymbal can no longer
dissapate freely as the vibrations overcome each other in their travel causing
cancelation. this kills the sustain. we keep the 'levels' exactly the same on
the cymbals. sometimes jerry hits them a little softer (this is when they
sound full and loud) and sometimes he hits them way too hard (this is when they
are harsh with no sustain) , however, the level in either case is relatively
the same with our mic placement. it's simply a matter of style, not mic level.
(in jerry's case)"

So my very simple question is this: is this an accurate picture of what happens when someone whacks a cymbal really hard (i.e., reduced sustain)?

THANKS!

[Steve Hoffman]

Possibly. But it depends on the brand of cymbal, the type of stick, the angle of whack (so to speak).

How hard does this guy hit? Geez.

At any rate, I've played drums for a long time, and I'm pretty easy on my cymbals. I've noticed that the easier they are hit, the more complex the tone variations can be.

Kind of like playing electric guitar through an overloaded tube amp. After a certain loudness point, nothing happens anymore. So, why go there? Back off and get some tone back for heaven's sake!

[Unknown]

How hard does this guy hit? Geez.

You will find out very soon!

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Patrick M ]

[Gary]

Steve, do you have a favorite *small* speaker? I am looking at some vintage AR5's I found in a flea market. I've seen AR7's there too. They'd be a good fit for my listening room which is on the small side.

For example, my KEF Calindas demand "air" or a big space, so they are in the living room.

I love my Tangents but I am always on the lookout for more / different speakers. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated!

And what Tannoys do you have?

PS By small speakers, I mean 2 way speakers, about two and a half feet high with the corresponding depth requirements.... :)

Oh - and any one elses comments would be appreciated, too!

[JohnnyK]

Gary,

Regarding AR speakers, I have a pair of AR3a speakers. This is what you need to be concerned about when looking at old AR speakers. First look at the woofers for "Foam rot". This can be easily fixed. Next, check out the attenuatioin controls for the tweeter and midrange. They become corroded over time and will need to be replaced. Also, the tweeters and midrange tend to burnout from loud listening levels. I have replaced these drivers on my AR3a speakers a number of times. The last time a replaced them with Dynaudio drivers. These speakers still "rock" after 28 years.

Following is a great web site for AR replacement parts: http://layneaudio.hypermart.net/AR.htm

[Gary]

Thanks, Johnny! What an amazing site! They even have Advents (my very first *good* pair of speakers - still going strong over 20 years!)

These AR speakers seem to be in good shape although I have not listened to them at very loud levels.

Thanks again! :D

[Steve Hoffman]

Gary,

I use a pair of Lead lined Whatmoughs from the land down under. They are small, rest on their own custom stands filled with sand, and have been with me since I started doing Gold CD's and LP's.

There are other neat small speakers out there.... Make sure your amps have enough power to drive the little beasts.

As to Tannoys, I have a pair of Tannoy Gold Lancasters from 1968, Tannoy GRF Windsor Golds from 1973 and Tannoy System 12 DMT's from 1994.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Hoffman ]

[wes]

Steve, have you heard the LS3/5A BBC British monitors? Are they any good?

-Wes

[Steve Hoffman]

Yes they are. Be warned, there are so many versions floating around one's brain can be overloaded.

My friend from TMH Audio, Jim Ricketts is an expert on BBC monitors. Go to him at:
http://www.tmhaudio.com

Email him and he will show you where to get the correct ones....

I like the sound. Great on voices (why the BBC developed them in the first place). No substitute for a big full range sound, but you can't go wrong with a pair....Cheap too!

[wes]

Thanks for the info Steve, I'll check it out.

-Wes :)