Thoughts on SACD hardware....

[Gary]

I'm still looking around at SACD players. But something is bothering me....

DVD-A is 5.1 which means 5 channel. From what I've heard, the two channel is *usually* an afterthought and is a fold down from 5.1. This is pretty crappy sounding - muddy, not focused, etc. For me, 2 channel DVD-A is not an option. I can go back to my old '70's stereo for the same sound quality. :rolleyes:

So far, SACD is dedicated 2 channel. It's mastered for 2 channel. Sounds great!

But what about the future? Will SACD always be mastered specifically for two channel AND 5.1 (or even 6.1???) Or will they follow DVD-A's fold down route? Probably depends on the mastering. But due to time and budget constraints, I'll bet that if the mastering engineer, who may be creating the DVD-A mix as well as the SACD mix at the same time, will take the same shortcuts on both the DVD-A and SACD. Fold down mix for both formats.

Present company excepted, Steve! I can't imagine you ever taking this shortcut.....

Because of this, I think I'll be purchasing the cheap Sony 775 SACD for $250.00. Why?

1) It's received good reviews from this board and other places
2) The 555ES is $1,600.00 here in Canada although the price will be dropping..... "shrug"
3) It looks like I *must* go 5 channel since SACDs are going that way. But current players have no timing alignment (sound from front and rear speakers arrive at the same time at the listener) and have no bass management. These problems will be addressed and be standard features in the future. I'll have to upgrade when this happens and try to get rid of my old machine. If I get a 555ES, what "audiophile" in her / his right mind would buy it with these defficiencies in 5.1?

Five channel DVD-A is a must (see above).

And I can always put the 775 into the house system (non reference!) afterwards. Yes, I can put the 555ES into the house system, too. But why spend an extra $1,350.00 for a player that I will never seriously listen to after the new players come out in a few months??

Thanks for reading this. If I've missed any important points, please respond!

[Sckott]

Sony has rumored to stop making dedicated audio decks for the future. Furthermore, the 775 is tweekable, and can be upgraded at a "clever" user level. The 775 is limited to stock on hand only, in many cases. I really think Sony has stopped manufacturing the 775. Their next batch of decks are supposedly arriving during the Back To School season. Keep an eye out. Will be interesting.

Sony is trying to impliment DVD capability in all 5" disc units. This may cause itchiness in audiophiles, or just plain dumb joy in the average consumer. The 775 is a great buy. With some improvements, its an excellent buy.

Again, just a rumor. We all know what rumors usually do. Just watch out.

[vex]

Originally posted by Gary
I'm still looking around at SACD players. But something is bothering me....

DVD-A is 5.1 which means 5 channel. From what I've heard, the two channel is *usually* an afterthought and is a fold down from 5.1. This is pretty crappy sounding - muddy, not focused, etc. For me, 2 channel DVD-A is not an option. I can go back to my old '70's stereo for the same sound quality. :rolleyes:



The stereo mix for DVD-A is NOT usually an afterthought and is NOT usually a fold down from 5.1. The opposite is true. MOST DVD-A titles DO have a separate and proper stereo mix that is truly spectacular. Don't let a few "bad apples" spoil the whole bunch of great DVD-A titles!

After running into a few of these "bad apples" (e.g. practically all the Silverline/Sanctuary releases) I started to get frustrated that this could have a negative impact on an incredible format. Your own conclusions confirm my suspicions.

In any event, I have added a page to my website listing all the DVD-A titles available and have included some extra info, including whether a separate stereo mix is available, and if so, at what bit-depth/resolution. You can use this list to help decide what titles to buy so you don't get "burned" by a title that does not have a separate stereo mix.

http://www.greatgig.com/quad/dvd-a-list.html

This is a work in progress, and there is a lot of missing info, but I think it is a good start. I agree that DVD-A has been poorly implemented by some companies, and there is a lot of misinformation out there. But don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater." This is an incredible format, in both stereo and surround, and deserves serious consideration.

For what its worth, I am a member of an audiophile club here in Seattle, and at a recent meeting I put on a demonstration of DVD-A in stereo, using a very wide selection of material, to a very skeptical audience. The demonstration silenced more than a few critics. Everyone was blown away by the exceptional quality, in terms of resolution, presence and soundstaging, that was offered by DVD-A in stereo. One individual approached me after the meeting and said, "I've been a member of this club for five years, and your presentation tonight was without a doubt the best thing I've ever heard." This is no BS.

So, I urge you not to dismiss DVD-A so quickly. It is more than worthy of serious evaluation.

[Gary]

Thank you for the clarification, Vex. I'll keep an open mind - as well as ears!

[MagicAlex]

Originally posted by Sckott
Sony has rumored to stop making dedicated audio decks for the future. Furthermore, the 775 is tweekable, and can be upgraded at a "clever" user level.

Sckott, can you tell me a little bit more about the mods that can be done on the 775? Thanks!

[Todd Fredericks]

Gary,

It's a tough call. I discovered something about myself when I was debating over the CE775 and the C555ES (even after I brought the CE775). I kept thinking that when something new comes out I could always upgrade and/or put the first player in a secondary system. For a while this seemed to make sense but in a way (for me) it was just a justification. Why would I spent some hard earned money on a player that I was considering (in the back of my mind) to almost "ditch" as soon as something else came out in the fall? Will these "new" players be that much better or worse? The funny thing is I don't buy CD players that often (my 6 year old sony died a year ago and I was using my DVD player) so now I'm buying 2 in the course of a few months? In other words, I sat myself down and did some serious thinking. I decided what I could realistically afford now (or even in the fall). Which player can i get with my budget and will it be something I really want and can live happily with for several years. I also decided that I wanted something now and so what about the fall? I doubt the "new" stuff will be as discounted as the present stuff (which Sony seems to be giving away). I did research and decided I wanted the C555ES. This player would do the trick (for me). At the time, I thought it was still going for $699.99-799.99. I was happy to find out the price was further reduced ($599.99) and I got one for a killer price ($538). I am very happy with this player. Yes, it has a very, very basic bass management (no time delay, etc.) but I don't listen to multi-ch that often (rarely) and when I do, everything seems to be "good enough" in my living room (far from perfect but enjoyable). In the future, if I become obssesed with getting brilliant bass mgmt, I think I would rather buy a very good quality external BM device (I'm sure more will become available in time). I just say, pick what you can afford and what will make you happy...

Todd

[Gary]

Good points, Todd. If the 555ES was the same amount here (in Canadian funds which would be $960.00), I'd spring for that. But it's almost double that at $1,600.00!

I can't imagine that the 777ES would be that much better than the 555ES?

But the 775 is $250.00 CAD which is about $165.00 US - pretty good! And the single slot player is $179.00 CAD which is about $110.00 US. Even better, cost wise! As the house system has a 12 year old Technics 5 disc CDP, I would not mind upgrading to the 775!

Then there is the $3,000.00 Marantz.....

Think I'll do more waiting. When the new models come out in the fall, if I watch closely and visit the Sony Store weekly, I may get lucky!

[Todd Fredericks]

Gary,

I think you're right about waiting for the Fall. It's not that far away. It's amazing about the price differences in Canada and the US. Can you have something shipped or pick something up in the US?

Todd

[Sckott]

Originally posted by MagicAlex


Sckott, can you tell me a little bit more about the mods that can be done on the 775? Thanks!

It's not for eager people with poor soldering techniques, but there are kits as well as receipes people are using. I'll have to insist you wait before doing anything major though, as the warranty expires as soon as you muck with a perfectly good unit.

However, take a look at the Hi REz Highway at AudioAsylum.com and peek in there. Search for 775 upgrades. For now, they're a bit pricey.

Keep yer eye at : http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/bbs.html

[sgb]

Originally posted by vex

So, I urge you not to dismiss DVD-A so quickly. It is more than worthy of serious evaluation.

That may be true, vex, but in light of the fact that WEA is the only holdout among the major record labels to release titles in SACD, I think the writing is definitely on the wall for the demise of this format.

As I've said before, I've heard DVD-A in home audio systems ranging from $20K to over $400K, and never regarded it as positively as you do. In fact, the friend who owns the >$400K system has decided not to buy any more DVD-A titles simply because the ones he has bought don't approach the quality of SACD.

I suppose his DVD-A titles must all have been from that Silverline company you mentioned, though, as not a one of them had discrete stereo segments; they are all fold-downs.;)

Gary, I think it's inevitable that at some time in the future we will all be forced into buying multi-channel SACD players, but I think that time is many years away. I'll have to grow 3.1 more ears to be anatomically correct for this, though. And, I suppose I will have to move all of the furniture out of the living room in order to make room for all of those extra speakers. Until then, I'll just have to be satisfied with listening to my lowly 2-channel SA-14.:D

[vex]

At the point where you have a decent audio system (even one costing half a million dollars) capable of reproducing hi-rez PCM or DSD, then it boils down to which you have a personal preference for. They both sound downright incredible, but they do sound different. I don't agree that the writing is on the wall for DVD-A, however. DVD-A will most certainly end up being the less dominant format, but I think SACD and DVD-A will co-exist for quite some time. Adopting one or the other is sure to leave you wanting for at least a couple of titles. I think the holdouts waiting for a quality dual format player have the right idea. Having a dedicated player for both formats is also a great way to go if its in your budget. I just couldn't bring myself to choose one or the other, and you certainly should not rely upon all the misinformation out there to influence your decision to go one way or the other.

[Gary]

Todd, I have vague plans to visit California in the Fall and perhaps Pennsylvania will be somewhere in there, too. Shipping to Canada will kill me with duties and taxes and there probably won't be much of a difference after it's all said and done.

I'll have to lean more patience!

SGB, I may have to move to Pickering for the extra 3.1 hearing capability. There is a new-clear power plant there and I am sure my hearing will improve. Not as "good" as Three Mile Island, but I'm sure they are trying! :rolleyes:

Also, SGB, as I am sure your friend with the $400K system can distinguish a difference between SACD and DVD-A, my system costs 'ever so slightly' less money and perhaps the difference will not be as pronounced. ;) At any rate, what started all of this was the possible demise of a proper 2 channel mix and - thankfully - Vex has put my fears at rest.

Although I have not heard *all* fold down mixes, I was very much unimpressed! Yeeeech, what a step backwards!

I can see DVD-A remaining a minor player in all this as most home playback systems will have a TV in them, for DVD-V. The TV will be turned off or at least will not have a video or even moving / entertaining graphics for the entire album! How can the average consumer stare at a blank TV screen? They'll want to watch something!

Anyway, all that is just my opinion. And as I've said before, the only thing that'll upset me is if Steve releases something in one format and not the other. I think the only way that it could happen is if Steve or DCC or S&P does not get the rights to DVD-A, but does get the rights to SACD. Is this possible? Who knows? I'd better have both types of playback, man!

I also think the rumour of "no dedicated music only" DVD or SACD players is scary. It's hard to find a DVD-A only player now! I'd think that the video portion of the player could compromise the audio portion. I'd rather keep 'em separate....

Well, time will tell!

[vex]

Originally posted by Gary
Although I have not heard *all* fold down mixes, I was very much unimpressed! Yeeeech, what a step backwards!

Yes, the DVD-A fold-down mixes are terrible! Some titles don't even have fold-down. You just get two channels of a 5.1 mix. The blasphemous Silverline label is responsible for a vast majority of these monstrosities. I think Silverline has done more to hurt DVD-A than they have done to help it. With only a few exceptions (such as Rambient, Dishwalla, Shankar & Gingger) I would reccomend staying away from their entire catalog.

Use my list to identify titles with proper stereo mixes and you'll be okay. :cool:

[JohnG]

DVDA in stereo is fine. With the right player (Panasonic RP91) and the proper speakers and bass management, all is good.

It's always tough to describe how music sounds in a system when you can't hear it for your self. Seems like many people put down DVDA without actually ever hearing what it can do.

DVDA sounds great with rock titles. And my Pipe Organ dvda disc isn't too shabby either!

JohnG

[bmoura]

Originally posted by sgb

That may be true, vex, but in light of the fact that WEA is the only holdout among the major record labels to release titles in SACD, I think the writing is definitely on the wall for the demise of this format.


Actually WEA is releasing SACDs as well. Unfortunately those releases are limited to local artists in the Hong Kong and Singapore markets at the moment.

As for your SA-14 being "lowly", I'd disagree. I think the Marantz and Philips SACD players sound just fine !

[sgb]

Originally posted by bmoura


As for your SA-14 being "lowly", I'd disagree. I think the Marantz and Philips SACD players sound just fine !

I guess I should have put a ;) after my comment about my SA-14 being lowly, Brian. Frankly, I can't imagine wanting any other SACD player based on the way it sounds in my system.

How 'bout this: too bad the CCR SACDs aren't coming out in multi-channel.;) ;)

[MagicAlex]

Originally posted by sgb


sgb, off topic but what album are you using for your avatar? I don't recognize it. :confused:

[bmoura]

Originally posted by sgb
I guess I should have put a ;) after my comment about my SA-14 being lowly, Brian. Frankly, I can't imagine wanting any other SACD player based on the way it sounds in my system.

How 'bout this: too bad the CCR SACDs aren't coming out in multi-channel.;) ;)

Agreed. I've been impressed by the Marantz SA-1, -12 and -14 players as well as the Philips SACD-1000 SACD players. So I'm sure you're in good shape there. The only way to better it is probably to connect one of the Meitner DACs to it directly (as described yesterday on the Hi Rez Highway).

As for Creedence Clearwater Revival on a Multichannel SACD, well it's possible. After all, in the '70s Fantasy did release a surround version of their hits called "Creedence Gold". So if they can find that master tape and Acoustic Sounds is interested in giving Steve Hoffman yet another SACD project, who knows... !

[sgb]

Originally posted by MagicAlex


sgb, off topic but what album are you using for your avatar? I don't recognize it. :confused:

It is the most colossally, stupendously and awesomely underrated jazz album of the 1960s. In its current but limited-availability edition it is titled West 42nd Street in honor of the site where the recording was made. The album was released originally on the Jazztime label with a different title (that escapes me right now) and featuring as lead artist the phenomenal tenor sax player named Rocky Boyd, a Boston-born Berklee graduate who did literally disappear from the face of the earth shortly after the recording was made. It is surmised that his heroin addiction took its toll, but no one knows for sure. Had he made more records, he would have most surely joined Coltrane, Hawkins, Webster, Parker et al in that pantheon of greatest jazz saxophone players, but this was not to be.

It came to my attention just recently when it was among the results of a google search I had done on one fine pianist named Walter Bishop, Jr. Bishop had played with a number of the greats in his early career - Parker and Davis among them - but hadn't recorded much. His playing puts you in the mind of a Brubeck that doesn't make mistakes, or an Evans like the one on the Interplay Sessions recordings (DCC version, of course). This is one of his finest recorded sessions (but What's New ain't bad either).

The bassist on this recording is none other than a very young Ron Carter; drums are handled by an adept Pete La Roca who had worked with Boyd on and off since his arrival on the New York jazz scene in 1958.

The horn blower pictured on the current Black Lion release is the serene Kenny Dorham. If you don't know how good Kenny is, this is as good a place to start as any. If you are not familiar with the Black Lion label, it comes from one of the European countries (not sure whether it's Germany, France or the UK), and I have yet to find a sonic stinker among their releases. Some of them rank among the best sounding jazz reissues I've ever heard, and this one is near the top.

If I win the Powerball lottery, I will be starting my own reissue label, and this will be my company's first SACD release.

If you'd like to read Dan Barrett's incredible review of this album click on this link to it over at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000015P1/qid=1026830167/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2270692-7715030

Sorry I got carried away.:angel:

[Sckott]

MagicAlex,

A brave (and tired soul) tried modding the CE775.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/85285.html

Some ideas....

[M_Anker]

Some ideas....

Yeah, learn a decent technique of desoldering capacitors from a thin printed circuit board. I figured out that technique in no time flat. It's funny, I can do all he did and more in 2.5 hours. Oh, the joys of repetitive labor. . . ;)

I don't know if any of you guys are interested, but I've got a new multi-channel modded CE775 for sale right now.

-Matthew Anker
www.SACDmods.com

[KeithH]

Gary, the issue of prices for Sony ES SACD players in Canada and the US came up recently on www.hometheaterforum.com. You could buy the 'C555ES from a US retailer by mail and save a lot of money. However, if you needed a repair, you would have to send it to Sony in the US. Sony Canada will not cover the repair if the component was bought through a US retailer. Still, it might not be the end of the world to send the component to a Sony service center in the US. You would still save a lot of money in the long run. Consider it.

[krabapple]

Originally posted by Gary
[B]I'm still looking around at SACD players. But something is bothering me....

DVD-A is 5.1 which means 5 channel. From what I've heard, the two channel is *usually* an afterthought and is a fold down from 5.1.

Nope, it's *usually* the original 2-channel mix in dedicated 2-channel DVD-A , and only *occasionally* is a fold-down from the multichannel the only stereo option.

[krabapple]

Originally posted by Gary
also think the rumour of "no dedicated music only" DVD or SACD players is scary. It's hard to find a DVD-A only player now! I'd think that the video portion of the player could compromise the audio portion. I'd rather keep 'em separate....

They generally *are* separate, electronically, even if they are in the same box. Only in a very poorly implemented DVD-A player would the video portion negatively affect the audio (and vice versa). This has been discussed on RAHE, by the way. Of course, if by 'compromise'; you mean, cheaper components would be used , that's possible, but very 'high-end' DVD-A players are out there, containing top-quality video *and* audio components, if you want them.

As for SACD vs. DVD-A , I don't believe any decently controlled comparisons have been done, even though I have seen at least one audiophile rag come out in favor of *DVD-A*. ( Please don't ask me which, as I tend to skim the nutty fringe publications (e.g. TAS) 'in store'.) But in general my impression is that the audiophile rags seem to be backing SACD, though I suspect an unwarrentedly purist bias against the sort of 'mixing of formats' , above, has something to do with it. I've also seen some analyses as to why DSD (SACD) as implemented is 'technically' inferior to PCM (DVD-A), though this is controversial, and whether the difference is audible has not been proven.

[Richard Feirstein]

When Joni Mitchel's ex who was also her producer, was mastering her award winning album he did both a DSD and a hi rez pcm transfer. He reported that the DSD master sounded just like the sound from the board and that the highest rez-pcm sounded good too but that this was not a consumer level multi-channel standard and that to his ears the DSD master just sounded better; a lot better then the multi-channel DVD-A mix. So far only the DVD-A has been issued. But mastering tools are being improved so it may not be a definitive final conclusion on this point. Sound Vision printed this interview last year.