UNFIXABLE Recording/Mastering Faults or "Will That 'HOT POT' Follow Me Forever?"

[Khorn]

Do you have any discs that although you like very much have some sort of bothersome sonic defect that either can't be or won't be fixed for fear of compromising artistic/sonic integrity?

The one that has bothered me the most is a horrendous hiss on the cut 'Blues-Part II' on the Blood, Sweat & Tears self titled CD Columbia/Legacy CK63986. This 2000 re-master is excellent except for that annoying, extended noise mentioned above that seems to come from a 'hot pot' that is exhibiting a very nasty S/N ratio.
Hiss seems to be at it's lowest in this most recent redo especially on the cut 'Sometimes in Winter' which had the hiss right into the music on earlier versions. This leads me to believe that some sort of noise reduction is being used here which, while eliminating most tape hiss, can't cover up the problem in 'Blues-Part II.

The above also leads to this dreaded 'hot potato':

What do you think about noise that was OBVIOUSLY NOT INTENDED AS PART OF THE RECORDING AND INTERFERES WITH THE ENJOYMENT OF THE MUSIC. Should or should it not be eliminated in the re-mastering?

[Grant]

Originally posted by Khorn


What do you think about noise that was OBVIOUSLY NOT INTENDED AS PART OF THE RECORDING AND INTERFERES WITH THE ENJOYMENT OF THE MUSIC. Should or should it not be eliminated in the re-mastering?

Noise, as in the form of hiss and mechanical or AC hum was never intended to be part of the original recording, but, **** happens! Tape hiss is a fact of life, and noise is usually part of the recording. Don't try to remove what is on the master tape! If it gets there as a result of tape copying or mastering, it should not be there if remastered properly. If it's part of the original recording, well, that's life. The only exception I can think of to this is restoring vinyl. Many here will disagree with me on this, but I find it perfectly acceptable to remove the things that were added like surface noise and clicks. But if there is hiss from tape or if I can't remove the noise without compromising the sound, I will leave it there.

In the 80s, it became faddish to try to remove all hiss and other anomalies in recordings to get them to sound "digital". The no-noisers of today many times do this because we now have a whole population who have gotten used to noise-free digital. Many people will not accept a CD unless it is as clean as the latest digital recording, no matter what the vintage. They want everything to sound 'modern'.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Khorn
What do you think about noise that was OBVIOUSLY NOT INTENDED AS PART OF THE RECORDING AND INTERFERES WITH THE ENJOYMENT OF THE MUSIC. Should or should it not be eliminated in the re-mastering?

Clicks or pops? Well, you can get rid of those without affecting the music, so I say sure.

Tape hiss? No way. Totally ruins the sound of things.

[Grant]

Yeah, what Luke said in fewer words than I used.

[Khorn]

The thing I don't quite get is that we'll 'sing praises' when they digitally reconstruct an old movie, replacing damaged footage with what amounts to an educated guess as to what was there (I have the new Criterion DVD print of the "remaster" of 'The Third Man' and what they have accomplished is fantastic) yet we won't accept any screwing around with music???

Tell me, if we could remove artifacts such as tape hiss and erroneous open noisey mic pots and the like, and, through some sort of interpolation could replace the damaged frequencies would you still be againsed it? If so, Why?

I'm making the assumption in the statement above that we couldn't audibly detect the difference.

[Steve Hoffman]

Well, to me, a noisy mic pot and seeing the boom mic in a shot in a film amount to the same thing.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, it's kind of charming.

But as for video movie restorations, I can see how "soft" the picture gets when all the little imperfections are digitally removed and it drives me crazy (think "Snow White", where they removed the dust from the animation cells). Arggh.

[jroyen]

In Spiderman, for a very distinct period, you can clearly see the boom microphone - Aunt May and Uncle Ben discussing the paper at the living room table, and Peter talking to Mary Jane in the backyard.

It could have easily been digitally removed in post-production. But that such a big-budget blockbuster would have such a flaw is sort of endearing.

[Ken_McAlinden]

Originally posted by jroyen
In Spiderman, for a very distinct period, you can clearly see the boom microphone - Aunt May and Uncle Ben discussing the paper at the living room table, and Peter talking to Mary Jane in the backyard.

It could have easily been digitally removed in post-production. But that such a big-budget blockbuster would have such a flaw is sort of endearing. I'm not sure if it is the case with Spiderman, but sometimes, boom mikes appear due to misframing at your local cinema. The projected image is supposed to be a 1.85:1 extraction of a 1.37:1 frame, if the projection is tilted slightly down or otherwise matted improperly, you see stuff that was supposed to be matted out. There were scenes in "Men in Black" and "Ransom" like this a few years ago where some people would report errors and some would not due to variability in projection.

They usually do not optically matte the release prints since it involves an extra optical generation or two to do it.

...as for Steve's comment about Snow White, the latest DVD version is a big improvement over the previous laserdisc and VHS releases of the same restoration. The artifacts from dust removal and such, while still there, are a lot more subtle than they used to be. The almost complete absence of film grain is a little weird, though.

Regards,

[RDK]

Yes, what Ken said.

If you see any boom mics in a major H'wood pic it's because of improper framing at the local multiplex.

[jroyen]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

Although, in the future, major movie studios might want to make a consideration for this variable in the final output. Because I attended a screening with several hundred people, in which many clearly saw the boom microphone during one of the biggest blockbusters of the summer, and maybe the year. :P

I've also heard back from people who also witnessed the same thing, in various other screenings across the US.

Josh

[Ken_McAlinden]

Although, in the future, major movie studios might want to make a consideration for this variable in the final output. I would hate to compromise other aspects of the production (like the ability to use production dialog via good microphone placement on set) to accomodate decreasing standards in film presentation. The best recourse is to complain to your theater owner. Of course, they probably are more likely to give you free passes to another improperly presented film than actually fix the problem, but at least they will start to get the idea that a problem exists. :)

Regards,

[Khorn]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman


But as for video movie restorations, I can see how "soft" the picture gets when all the little imperfections are digitally removed and it drives me crazy (think "Snow White", where they removed the dust from the animation cells). Arggh.

Just a little aside: Just up until about two months ago I hadn't been a commercial movie theater since the first run of Barry Lyndon in the seventies. The first thing I went to see was the Lord Of The Rings movie that just came out a while ago and then, a few weeks later Gosford Park.
I can't tell you how DISAPPOINTED I was at the quality of projected image in both these cases. In the 'Rings' case I had them refocus the projector to the best of their ability but to no avail. Gosford was a bit better but still, in my opinion unacceptable.

These were in SOTA first run theaters and if thats what you folks are getting for your money nowadays, BUMMER. Its like comparing a first gen (under the table) 1/2 track mixdown dupe on the old ATR-102 to a 1984 vintage cd made from 10th gen something EQ'd for AM play.

Bring back 70mm and, until then I just can't wait 'till I move next month and get my new 16 x 9 RP TV.

I'll tell you folks, you don't realize how good we have it now with modern TVs and VIDEO dvds 'cause what there feeding us at the high priced commercial movie theaters as far as projected film quality goes is pure crap.

[Jeff H.]

Originally posted by RDK
Yes, what Ken said.

If you see any boom mics in a major H'wood pic it's because of improper framing at the local multiplex.


You sometimes see that on old home video releases. On the original pan & scan laserdisc and VHS tape of "Pee Wee's Big Adventure" there was a scene where at the bottom of the frame you could see the highway signs go by on tracks pulled by a cable!!

[Sckott]

Sigh. I always thought that it was an on-purpose flub. Kinda like on a monster movie..

[Jeff H.]

Originally posted by Sckott
Sigh. I always thought that it was an on-purpose flub. Kinda like on a monster movie..

Nope Sckott, it sure wasn't. Tim Burton and Paul Reubens were commenting and joking about it on the commentary track of the DVD, which shows that shot framed as intended.