HDTV over the air

[jpbarn]

I just bought a new tv (Sanyo HT32744) with a built-in HDTV tuner. I live about 15 miles from Manhattan, & thought I'd be able to get the local hi-def channels with an indoor antenna I bought with the tv: CBS comes in perfectly, Fox & ABC intermittently, & not much else.

I have an old rooftop antenna (pre-digital era) that hasn't been used in years; should I get up on the roof & hook it up, or do I need a new (digital?) antenna? Or is there an indoor antenna that's markedly better than the $40 Phillips that Walmart sold me?

I know there's a ton of information on the avs forum about this particular tv set & these issues, but I don't always follow the technical jargon over there all that well.

Thanks in advance.

John.

[Joe Nino-Hernes]

You should be able to use your old rooftop antenna to receive HDTV.

[SamS]

Hi John,

Welcome to the world of HDTV! As far as antennas go, a good normal UHF/VHF will work. If you can find out which of your local digital channels are broadcast on UHF and which are broadcasting via VHF, we can determine if your current antenna is good at picking up both frequencies.

[JonUrban]

You are lucky to be so close to the signal. I live in the boonies, and can get NOTHING OTA, even with a monster Channel Master type long range UHF/VHF deal. It's related to distance and hills and such. Our cable has 1 network station, and the satellites only have the few cable stations. It's a shame that HDTV is so difficult to get in most places.

[SamS]

John & Jon,

DirecTV is starting to offer network HDTV channels via satellite. You'll need to call them to see if your geographic area qualifies. Has something to do with Owned & Operated networks---DirecTV can tell you more. Something to do with which networks are owned by who, etc. :confused:

[JonUrban]

John & Jon,

DirecTV is starting to offer network HDTV channels via satellite. You'll need to call them to see if your geographic area qualifies. Has something to do with Owned & Operated networks---DirecTV can tell you more. Something to do with which networks are owned by who, etc. :confused:

Right. If the local affiliate in your assigned area is Owned and Operated by the network itself, then the satellite companies can give you the NY or LA HDTV feed. If, however, you happen to be in an area where the network affiliate assigned to you is owned by another company, you are out of luck. Sometimes, you can be in TWO areas, and if one of the stations is an O&O, and the other is not, then you are SOL.

For example, in NYC, you are cool. In South Eastern CT, you may be in both the Hartford and the New York area (decided by others). In this case, you would NOT be able to get WCBS-TV in HD from satellite, for example, even though you might get WCBS on your cable or over the air, because WFSB (CBS in Hartford) also claims your viewership, and has the right to prevent you from getting the NY HDTV feed, they depriving them of your ability to see their commercials.

In these shared areas (Newark, Eastern and Western CT, Balto-Wash, etc, this is a real problem. Sports blackouts are another issue all together, but that's another thread.

This really sucks.

[Doug Sclar]

I just bought a new tv (Sanyo HT32744) with a built-in HDTV tuner. I live about 15 miles from Manhattan, & thought I'd be able to get the local hi-def channels with an indoor antenna I bought with the tv: CBS comes in perfectly, Fox & ABC intermittently, & not much else.

I have an old rooftop antenna (pre-digital era) that hasn't been used in years; should I get up on the roof & hook it up, or do I need a new (digital?) antenna? Or is there an indoor antenna that's markedly better than the $40 Phillips that Walmart sold me?

I know there's a ton of information on the avs forum about this particular tv set & these issues, but I don't always follow the technical jargon over there all that well.

Thanks in advance.

John.
I believe one of the problems with HDTV in the NYC area is unfortunately the collapse of the WTC. NYC had a lot of stations that bit the dust that day. Some relocated to the Empire State Building but some didn't. I'm not sure of the current status but I think there are still some areas in the NYC region that are stilil not getting their coverages.

[SamS]

Right. If the local affiliate in your assigned area is Owned and Operated by the network itself, then the satellite companies can give you the NY or LA HDTV feed. If, however, you happen to be in an area where the network affiliate assigned to you is owned by another company, you are out of luck. Sometimes, you can be in TWO areas, and if one of the stations is an O&O, and the other is not, then you are SOL.

For example, in NYC, you are cool. In South Eastern CT, you may be in both the Hartford and the New York area (decided by others). In this case, you would NOT be able to get WCBS-TV in HD from satellite, for example, even though you might get WCBS on your cable or over the air, because WFSB (CBS in Hartford) also claims your viewership, and has the right to prevent you from getting the NY HDTV feed, they depriving them of your ability to see their commercials.

In these shared areas (Newark, Eastern and Western CT, Balto-Wash, etc, this is a real problem. Sports blackouts are another issue all together, but that's another thread.

This really sucks.

Jon, thanks for explaining. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that O&O concept :sigh:

I am lucky (?) in the Dallas area to get some locals channels in HD via DirecTV. I am VERY fortunate to have a good antenna and location and receive all my locals at 100% signal strength. I mean that very seriously. Up until last year, I actually lived closer to the towers, but only received ABC in HD because of building obstructions. I count my blessings all the time for FOX, CBS, NBC etc. in OTA HD. Especially because DirecTV has been limiting bandwith on virtually all of their HD channels causing reduced HD picture quality.

[Kayaker]

I believe one of the problems with HDTV in the NYC area is unfortunately the collapse of the WTC. NYC had a lot of stations that bit the dust that day. Some relocated to the Empire State Building but some didn't. I'm not sure of the current status but I think there are still some areas in the NYC region that are stilil not getting their coverages.

Man - I used to get incredible over the air TV living two miles and having a clear line of sight to the WTC.
Yes as I understood it - all of the Major networks had HDTV equipment in the WTC. Some were just starting to broadcast. The only exception was CBS. CBS never moved their transmitter from the Empire State Building and installed their HDTV transmitter there too (I think its still working there which would explain your clear signal). I heard it was purely an accident that CBS stayed in the Empire State Building - they were lucky since limitation of space have prevented most of the other stations from migrating over there. I don't know where the others stations are broadcasting from - I assumed it was that tower off the Hudson in Northern Jersey Pallisades right by the NY border. But judging from our lack of a signal maybe not..

[Gardo]

I'm 40-50 miles from the big D. C. stations, but I get pretty consistent reception in the evenings just with my indoor Zenith Silver Sensor antenna. All the reviews I read said this was the one to get, and all the reviews were right (I tried two other antennas and neither could hold a candle to this one). Because HDTV is a UHF signal, though, positioning is crucial. Fortunately, I've got a signal strength meter on my OTA box (part of my DISH Network box) that helps me tune in a signal when things get marginal, as they did last night while I was watching HOUSE. Atmospheric conditions are always a factor in my OTA HDTV reception.

[jpbarn]

I believe one of the problems with HDTV in the NYC area is unfortunately the collapse of the WTC. NYC had a lot of stations that bit the dust that day. Some relocated to the Empire State Building but some didn't. I'm not sure of the current status but I think there are still some areas in the NYC region that are stilil not getting their coverages.

Exactly; my confusion comes from going to a website (can't find it at work) that lists the frequency of all local hdtv (& analog) channels, & finding them all there listed as if they're obtainable.

John.

[jpbarn]

John & Jon,

DirecTV is starting to offer network HDTV channels via satellite. You'll need to call them to see if your geographic area qualifies. Has something to do with Owned & Operated networks---DirecTV can tell you more. Something to do with which networks are owned by who, etc. :confused:

Right, but then I'd have to invest more money into more equipment for what, for me, would be not that great a payoff, since directv doesn't seem to offer all that much hdtv content right now. I think I'm just going to play around with the free locals right now & see who comes up with what in the near future. Thanks for the advice though.

John.

[Christopher J]

I've been looking at this set(and the HT30744) for a while and it's one of the only ones in the price range with an integrated ATSC tuner. John, can I ask how well the HT32744 has worked out for you overall?

[ascot]

Ahhh... my goal for 2005: Hi-Def TV, baby :D

[SamS]

I've been looking at this set(and the HT30744) for a while and it's one of the only ones in the price range with an integrated ATSC tuner. John, can I ask how well the HT32744 has worked out for you overall?

I had the 30" widescreen model for some time, and liked it a lot. Took it back for unrelated reasons.

Is it a perfect TV? No, but it gives you a lot of bang-for-the-buck. It has 3 features that I think are great:

1) Built in HDTV tuner, all for $747! Shoot, I remember when stand-alone HD tuners were more than this.
2) Stretch features for 1080i signals. You can stretch 4:3 content with black bars that is broadcast on HD channels, i.e. evening news. This will help prevent burn-in.
3) HDMI input. Can use this for upconverting DVD player or future HD box for best digital signal transmission.

[Johnny C.]

John & Jon,

DirecTV is starting to offer network HDTV channels via satellite. You'll need to call them to see if your geographic area qualifies. Has something to do with Owned & Operated networks---DirecTV can tell you more. Something to do with which networks are owned by who, etc. :confused:

Don't forget DISH Network has a special - HDTV monitor (your choice 3:4 or 16:9 aspect ratio) digital Sat rec'r with built in Personal Video Recorder, installed all for $699 bucks complete!

www.dishnetwork.com

1-800-333-DISH (no, I don't work for them)

[jpbarn]

I've been looking at this set(and the HT30744) for a while and it's one of the only ones in the price range with an integrated ATSC tuner. John, can I ask how well the HT32744 has worked out for you overall?

I like it a lot. On the avs forum there's an enormous thread about this tv (& its 30" cousin), which is worth wading through if you're thinking about this tv.

Firstly, I haven't had any of the problems that some folks there have mentioned, a lot of which seem to do with x-box, & tube geometry. The only minor issues I have with it are that I think the tv should be able to remember different input callibrations (I guess I could programme different modes (sports, movie, etc) to correspond with the inputs, but that would be a drag if you're a channel surfer)-if that sounds overly fussy, there's a huge difference between the way the various inputs look (right now: ota hdtv, ota analog, directv, & dvd). It's callibrated horribly out of the box.
The built-in speakers are poor, but I guess most people will be hooking up an auxilliary audio system.
You can't flick between, say, ota hdtv & direct channels without scrolling through the various inputs (doesn't bother me, seem to bother my wife)

However, the picture on hdtv is amazing, I mean really astonishing. I now see why all new converts sound like they're out of breath. DVD looks great, & I still don't have component cables (I'm using s-vhs). See my other thread for my problems with directv. For comparison sake, this tv is replacing a 5-year old 32" Sony Trinitron with tube going bad.

I would get the 32" over the 30"; you lose hardly anything watching widescreen on the 32, but you lose a lot watching 4:3 on the 30 (see the avs thread for exact dimensions).

I'm very happy with it, but it's a pain to purchase (it's heavy, & I hate going to Walmart). The 30" (not the 32") is on Walmart's website; if you go for that one, I'd buy it online, spend the $100 for shipping, save the tax (6% for me), & consider it $60 well spent (also the 30 is $650 on the web, but $700 at the store- the 32" was $700 too).

Hope this helps.

John.

[jpbarn]

2) Stretch features for 1080i signals. You can stretch 4:3 content with black bars that is broadcast on HD channels, i.e. evening news. This will help prevent burn-in.


Sam, is this (burn-in) an issue with crt's? I thought that was only with plasma...

On the 32", 4:3 over the HD input is letterboxed on all 4 sides, so you just zoom in; I personally don't like the stretch modes that I've seen on other tvs. I haven't tried on mine yet.

John

[Christopher J]

Hope this helps.

John.


Yes, thanks for all the info, John and SamS. I'd seen the rather convoluted AVS thread(s) and it's good to get clear feedback on this set. I think the web is the only way I can get to this TV since trying to get help at Wal-Mart is like trying to fold soup. :)

[Gardo]

I don't mean to thread crap, but here's a view from the other side :): I had the Sanyo 32" for a week and took it back. I detailed my reasons on the AVS forum, but here's the short version:

1. Contrast was way off--I couldn't get a good black without crushing the image or washing it out. I know how to set black and white levels, and I have both Video Essentials and Avia, as well as several THX Optimizer-equipped DVDs. I even got into the service menu and played with gamma settings. Nothing helped. I think there's some kind of autocontrast built in (the Sanyo specs hint at some automatic picture controls) that can't be defeated.

2. The color is very seductive but there's a massive red push if you get the color temperature down near 6500 (the warm setting). Way too rosy for me. This can be corrected in the service menu, they say. This color imbalance is true for SDTV and HDTV.

3. The picture is a bit soft, and occasionally I could see what looked like power-supply interference lines. These weren't apparent in most viewing, but once I saw them, I saw them a bunch. :(

4. The power supply is pretty weak. Black level changes quite a bit depending on average light in the scene.

When Best Buy had a sale and I could get the Sony 32HS420 for about 60.00 more than I paid for the Sanyo (which was 750 when I bought it), I took the Sanyo back and went for the Sony. I found the Sony to be a very large improvement, and the absence of an HD tuner wasn't an issue for me once I upgraded my Dish receiver to the HD model, which I'm leasing for 5.00 a month and which includes an OTA tuner. The Sony picture is considerably sharper than the Sanyo's, the power supply holds black very well, the contrast range and grayscale are top-notch, and the color is much more accurate. Not perfect, but well worth the extra 60.00, or even the 110.00 extra that it would have cost if the Sanyo had been priced where it is now, at 699 or so.

My .02. YMMV!

[SamS]

Sam, is this (burn-in) an issue with crt's? I thought that was only with plasma...

On the 32", 4:3 over the HD input is letterboxed on all 4 sides, so you just zoom in; I personally don't like the stretch modes that I've seen on other tvs. I haven't tried on mine yet.

John

John,

Yes, you can burn CRTs, though not as easily as plasma. I wasn't aware you could zoom in and get rid of black bars on all four sides of HDTV with the 32" 4x3, but then I haven't played around with that model. The stretch modes are pretty good for the 30" widescreen model.

Regarding Gardo's comments: Yes, I agree with all the flaws you point out regarding the picture. This pup ain't perfect! But, for me, it was a bedroom TV, and all I have is OTA antenna in that room + standard Tivo box. It worked great for watching a little Leno in HDTV or catching some primetime HD shows while in bed. I have a 55" Mits Diamond that has been ISF'd (most recently on Monday), so if I need mind-blowing HDTV, I just go over to the living room ;)

Edit: If you look through that massive thread on AVS (don't have the direct link right now) you'll see me posting in there early on, as I was one of the first to pick this one up at Wal-Mart back in May.

[jpbarn]

I don't mean to thread crap, but here's a view from the other side :): I had the Sanyo 32" for a week and took it back. I detailed my reasons on the AVS forum, but here's the short version:

1. Contrast was way off--I couldn't get a good black without crushing the image or washing it out. I know how to set black and white levels, and I have both Video Essentials and Avia, as well as several THX Optimizer-equipped DVDs. I even got into the service menu and played with gamma settings. Nothing helped. I think there's some kind of autocontrast built in (the Sanyo specs hint at some automatic picture controls) that can't be defeated.

2. The color is very seductive but there's a massive red push if you get the color temperature down near 6500 (the warm setting). Way too rosy for me. This can be corrected in the service menu, they say. This color imbalance is true for SDTV and HDTV.

3. The picture is a bit soft, and occasionally I could see what looked like power-supply interference lines. These weren't apparent in most viewing, but once I saw them, I saw them a bunch. :(

4. The power supply is pretty weak. Black level changes quite a bit depending on average light in the scene.

When Best Buy had a sale and I could get the Sony 32HS420 for about 60.00 more than I paid for the Sanyo (which was 750 when I bought it), I took the Sanyo back and went for the Sony. I found the Sony to be a very large improvement, and the absence of an HD tuner wasn't an issue for me once I upgraded my Dish receiver to the HD model, which I'm leasing for 5.00 a month and which includes an OTA tuner. The Sony picture is considerably sharper than the Sanyo's, the power supply holds black very well, the contrast range and grayscale are top-notch, and the color is much more accurate. Not perfect, but well worth the extra 60.00, or even the 110.00 extra that it would have cost if the Sanyo had been priced where it is now, at 699 or so.

My .02. YMMV!

Thanks for the opinions. I don't mind the threadcrap at all; I was thinking of asking opinions on this tv anyway...but I have some questions...

1. Re callibration, I'm a bit confused. I used Digital Video Essentials, but doesn't this merely make my dvds look good? I found that setting the "correct" contrast/brightness/sharpness left the picture looking great on dvd, but poor on directv; &, while ota hdtv looked amazing to a 1st-time viewer (me), it definitely needed further colour adjustment. (I thought SD directv also looked poor on the Sony that the Sanyo is replacing, for what it's worth). Is there any solution to this (ie correct callibration of all inputs from different sources)?

2. It sounds like you know what you're doing, but did you try the colour setting at neutral, as well as warm? I thought you were supposed to callibrate after you put settings to as neutral as possible.

Regarding 3 & 4, it seems from reading the avs thread that quality control varies wildly from unit to unit (hey, it's Walmart); I don't see what you see, but I'm not sure what to look for. Directv definitely looks soft the way I've callibrated it, but like I said, I'm still trying to figure out what's up with my directv feed.

Forgive the naivety; I'm new to this, & getting a headache.

John

[Gardo]

Thanks for the opinions. I don't mind the threadcrap at all; I was thinking of asking opinions on this tv anyway...but I have some questions...

1. Re callibration, I'm a bit confused. I used Digital Video Essentials, but doesn't this merely make my dvds look good? I found that setting the "correct" contrast/brightness/sharpness left the picture looking great on dvd, but poor on directv; &, while ota hdtv looked amazing to a 1st-time viewer (me), it definitely needed further colour adjustment. (I thought SD directv also looked poor on the Sony that the Sanyo is replacing, for what it's worth). Is there any solution to this (ie correct callibration of all inputs from different sources)?

The DVD calibration discs are intended to make all the inputs look good--so long as they're conforming to NTSC standards. Sources that don't may require tweaking, but that's because they're out of spec at the other end, or it could be because the various inputs have different settings in the service menu. Directv (like SD DISHh) looks pretty poor at times--some of my DISH channels look like VHS. Others look better.

2. It sounds like you know what you're doing, but did you try the colour setting at neutral, as well as warm? I thought you were supposed to callibrate after you put settings to as neutral as possible.

I love the way mfrs play with the English language. Warm is actually the closest to NTSC standard, which is 6500K for white. Neutral is actually too blue, but it's called "neutral" because that's where the blueish color temp and the built-in red push balance each other out. Trouble is, the "balance" means that ALL the colors are wrong, whereas the warm setting may be a wee bit too red but is accurate otherwise.

Regarding 3 & 4, it seems from reading the avs thread that quality control varies wildly from unit to unit (hey, it's Walmart); I don't see what you see, but I'm not sure what to look for. Directv definitely looks soft the way I've callibrated it, but like I said, I'm still trying to figure out what's up with my directv feed.

Forgive the naivety; I'm new to this, & getting a headache.

John

Once you've calibrated the TV and run some tests on it, you'll see exactly what I mean about black level and grayscale. Look at some of the uniform color fields to see if the interference lines are present.

FWIW, one DVD I could not get to look very good on the Sanyo was Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. It looks just fine on the Sony.