Tweaks: The Debate

[Richard Feirstein]

[I pulled all these posts out of the "Ultimate Tweak" thread. That thread was about the *benefits* of the pen tweak, it was not an invitation for people to jump all over the thread telling people how delusional they are. It's called thread crapping, and I'll be talking more about this later. - Holy Zoo]


I always thought this was an April Fool's Joke that had been taken seriously. It goes into the jar with speaker spikes, CD weights, regulated power conditioners and high end speaker wire (talk about flame bait). (If I really wanted to bait this group I would have added audiophile LP's, DVD-A's and SACD's). If you hear a difference may the force be with you).:D :D :D

I myself do not spike, ink, add weight, spend money on high end wire, or regulate my power, but I am a sucker for Steve's LP's and CD's.:p

[SVL]

You could ink them, or put them in the freezer - some people tried that too, claiming that it produced an audible improvement.

IMO if you want to hear an improvement, you probably will:).

[Dave B]

My favorite tweak is the Bendini Clarifier which claims to demagnitize aluminium and plastic (grood trick huh?)

[Beagle]

Originally posted by Richard Feirstein
I always thought this was an April Fool's Joke that had been taken seriously. It goes into the jar with speaker spikes, CD weights, regulated power conditioners and high end speaker wire (talk about flame bait). (If I really wanted to bait this group I would have added audiophile LP's, DVD-A's and SACD's). If you hear a difference may the force be with youIs this Peter Aczel under an alias? :D

[Richard Feirstein]

Is that intended as an insult or a complement? (I'll take it as a high complement and then stop reading this site to keep my ego inflated). :D

[Sckott]

Just look at the CD and say gooey, romantic things to it. Works better than inking, and less messy! That is, unless your significant other catches you doing this!

No, inking is bad. Silly earthman.

[Rspaight]

I always wondered -- if I ink my CD-ROMs will Quake run faster?

Ryan

[Gary]

I think that most people have debunked this as a myth. I remember it was a GREEN circle around the outer edges that was supposed to improve the sound.

I, being a wise person, was never fooled.

Gary

PS Anyone wanna buy a couple of cases of green permanemt markers? Old stock but they work great! Cheap!


:D

[Clark Johnsen]

"IMO if you want to hear an improvement, you probably will."

There's a corollary to this, or maybe I should say "a companion".

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR AN IMPROVEMENT, YOU PROBABLY WON'T.

The other main reason you won't, is that your system lacks the necessary resolution.

I have done many things to LPs and CDs. Some work well, some don't. One must maintain an open mind and not fall prey to *either* of the above conditions.

FWIW, black ink is terrible, the Audioprism green goop has problems unconnected with its sonic result, and most store-bought green felt markers produce nothing like the effect of the Marigo pen.

clark

[Beagle]

Originally posted by Richard Feirstein
Is that intended as an insult or a complement? (I'll take it as a high complement and then stop reading this site to keep my ego inflated). :D I don't think Peter Aczel and 'compliment' should appear in the same sentence ;)

Just kidding....

[Grant]

Green ink on the CD edge??? Snake oil! Someone once said that if a tweak induces a placebo effect that it's still worth it. These things are usually highly expensive placebos! Couldn't they just take drugs?

My favorite tweak is putting quarters on top of a CD player to bring back that analog warmth!

Give rich people enough time and disposable income and...:rolleyes:

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Grant
Green ink on the CD edge??? Snake oil! Someone once said that if a tweak induces a placebo effect that it's still worth it. These things are usually highly expensive placebos! Couldn't they just take drugs?

My favorite tweak is putting quarters on top of a CD player to bring back that analog warmth!

Give rich people enough time and disposable income and...:rolleyes:

Grant, the great thing about tweaks is they are just the opposite-- usually very inexpensive. At least the ones I consider are. I watch my money and there are tweaks that are expensive, but there's always a cheap solution too.

It cracks me up, vinyl guys tweak the living crap out of their turntables with all the cleaners, mats and stuff and have a guy say he coats a CD with something that costs 5¢/disc (about what the AI goes for) and somebody has to reach for the term "placebo effect." No need to actually listen on their own. Their mind is made up already.

AS IF the first thing they do when they play an LP is just stick it on the TT. LIKE there's NO ritual first? No cleaning? No Anti-estatic treatment? :rolleyes: Indeed! What was Patrick M saying about some people needing to feel superior?

[R. Cat Conrad]

I think the manufacturer's theory may be that gullible audiophiles will purchase this treatment to make fellow tweak obsessed audiophiles "envious" and thereby add lots of green $$$$$ to the company's bottom line. ;)

Robert Cat Conrad

[Richard Feirstein]

Cleaning a CD and a DVD is a good idea. I usually take most of the jelly off first, but find that strawberry does add a nice fruity note to classical music, and jam goes well with jazz.:D

[Gary]

Don't you first add a layer of butter or margerine? Smooths out the sound....... ;)

[Dave B]

Originally posted by Claviusb
It cracks me up, vinyl guys tweak the living crap out of their turntables with all the cleaners, mats and stuff and have a guy say he coats a CD with something that costs 5¢/disc (about what the AI goes for) and somebody has to reach for the term "placebo effect." No need to actually listen on their own. Their mind is made up already.

Claviusb - You're right, most vinyl users do have rituals but it really is necessary to keep the media in good shape. Whereas CD's really don't require nearly as much care to contimue to sound the same as new. As for tweaks, my feeling is, if you find something you feel improves the sound or your enjoyment of listening then by all means go for it. However, when I see the outragous prices being charged for some tweaks that appear to have no scientific basis I feel that we need to speak up. Personally, I'm suspicious af any tweak that you can't demonstate an improvement on a scope or through other forms of quantified measurement. I guess if you percieve an improvement and can afford it, it's no one's business what you do with your money. But for those on a budget, the money could be better spent on higher quality recordings or improved equipment.
Now, let me get back to applying Groove-Glide to my 180gm disc before I hit it with the Zero-Stat.

[RicP]

Originally posted by Dave B
However, when I see the outragous prices being charged for some tweaks that appear to have no scientific basis I feel that we need to speak up.
Why? Do you feel that it's your job to save people from being led astray by the evil tweakers? ;) Or is that you think that they have no minds of their own and are easily hypnotized by the magic tweaker's eye? ;)

See, I look at it like everyone here is an intelligent Human being and is perfectly capable of making up their own minds about something.

What's funny is that the tweak-naysayers are always concerned about other people's money...kind of strange obsession I think. Either that or it's just an "I'm smarter than you, let me be your Savior" sort of thing. Either way it's pretty silly.

[Dave B]

As I said, It's your money.....

[Clark Johnsen]

Yep, there you have it! To "poo poo an idea" is to dismiss it the same way virtually everyone dismissed Koch's, Semmelweis's and Pasteur's ideas. Germs? Don't make me laugh! Clean hands in a hospital? You're full of it! Living things make alcohol? The best joke of all!

We all know where that "thinking" went...

It would seem that a new truth, contrary to blazing its way to center stage, must wait for the old guys to die. Never mind Semmelweis's *very revealing* experiments at the Vienna Hospital, "That just can't be" was the reaction of the academic establishment. And so it is here, among the ones & zeros crowd.

Note too, these persons' lack of real openmindedness. They might style themselves as "skeptics" but in truth they are scoffers, scorners and mockers. Their sarcasm, the lowest form of argumentation, gives them away.

Oh and it isn't just here they appear. They dominate the newsstand media! And therefore control the minds of consumers and audiophiles alike, alas.

clark

[Dave B]

Clark,

I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Are you saying that those that do not accept that tweaks such as the green marker make an audible sonic improvement are ignoring scientific fact? If something can't be measured or demonstrated consistently then I remain skeptical. I am even more skeptical when the tweak is costly. Yes, I am indeed a skeptic but will readily accept any improvement that I can see or hear and would love to see some data that shows this tweak actually alters the sound of a recording. I have read the testimonials both pro and con, but have not seen any documentation to support the theory. In addition it would seem to me that if there where significant improvements to be had by merely making the edges of a disc opaque, at least one of the major record or audiophile reissue companies would have produced discs that incorporate this simple upgrade.

I have seen and tried a multitude of tweaks and accessories over the years. Some have made an immediate and dramatic improvement while others actually made things worse. So when asked my opinion of a tweak or upgrade my first reaction is to ask does it make sense that it will improve the sound reproduction of a recording. My second reaction if the tweak seems somewhat hard to accept, is to seek documented proof of the improvements and my third impulse is to audition it and see for myself. In the case of the green marker tweak it's a pretty cheap test so even if you don't like it the worst case scenario is that you'll need to clean some CDs. The test I ran for myself did not result in a significant improvement. I do however wash my hands after using the toilet. I've seen the scientific proof!

[Clark Johnsen]

"I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Are you saying that those that do not accept that tweaks such as the green marker make an audible sonic improvement are ignoring scientific fact?"

No. As to what's audible, there is precious little "scientific fact" -- whatever *that* is! And even when the data do exist, as in the case of Absolute Polarity, the scoffing continues. What I refer to is the rude, derisive attitude manifested by so many "skeptics".

"If something can't be measured or demonstrated consistently then I remain skeptical."

So: You refuse to listen. To make up your own mind. To consider what advocates have to say. That's OK! Your loss, not ours.

"I am even more skeptical when the tweak is costly."

Mercifully, few tweaks are costly. The price of those that are, must be factored against the price of, say, an amplifier upgrade. "For my hard-earned $600, which route gives me better sound?" Many, many open-minded people answer in favor of the "tweak".

clark

[Richard Feirstein]

And many open minded people (what ever that means) were receptive to blood draining and leaches. Either something makes a difference or it does not. If it does it must be repeatable and can be readily demonstrated time and time again. Blood draining and leach applications did make a difference; it killed off quite a few before their time, but it took years to get open minded people to look at the facts. With all we know about how difficult it is to tell what is a significant audio change we should not dismiss honest reports but we should not put down those who insist upon some objective proof. Most arguments in favor of high cost interconnects are so full of bull that I stop listening to those venders; I believe they are out to take my money without any benefit to me. But I don't care to inhibit anyone else from haveing fun with their toys; fun is fun. I also enjoy these debates; fun is fun.

[Clark Johnsen]

"And many open minded people (what ever that means) were receptive to blood draining and leaches."

Again, with the sarcasm.

Unfortunately for the writer, he is not up on the latest technology. Leeches are commonly used today by many physicians for a variety of applications. This has been reported so widely that no references are necessary; go browse.

And I read in New Scientist that they're letting blood again!

That's where sarcasm can get you, another illustration of why it loses, instead of wins, arguments. I recommend abstaining from it altogether.
..........................

"Either something makes a difference or it does not. If it does it must be repeatable and can be readily demonstrated time and time again."

Part A is unimpeachable. Part B is *so easy* with "tweaks" I have to laugh! That's why they sell!!

clark

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Dave B
As for tweaks, my feeling is, if you find something you feel improves the sound or your enjoyment of listening then by all means go for it.

As it should be Dave! Far be it from me to question what works for someone else.

However, when I see the outragous prices being charged for some tweaks that appear to have no scientific basis I feel that we need to speak up.

There are expensive tweaks out there that work, luckily for me I can't afford them. Whether they have scientific basis or not is another story. It's not that I'll buy into any old thing, but if there's some logical reason I'll consider at least trying something. I also know that there are some things that I've found to work for me but it defies *all* logic... so should I discount it just because I can't explain it? I'm not a scientist, I don't need to prove anything to anybody. If I hear a difference that's all that matters to me. If you (or anybody) can't hear it, that's ok too.

Personally, I'm suspicious af any tweak that you can't demonstate an improvement on a scope or through other forms of quantified measurement. I guess if you percieve an improvement and can afford it, it's no one's business what you do with your money. But for those on a budget, the money could be better spent on higher quality recordings or improved equipment.

This is the other thing that I don't get (not knocking you here-- I think you're a very cool guy, Dave B!) is that some people who don't believe in tweaks believe in buying better equipment, but what do they think is in that equipment to make it better sounding? Usually it's the tweaks that they are knocking in some other form! For some tweaks there is no hardware "upgrade" equivelant, or if there is it's a weaker form for more money.

Tweaked out equipment can make a good recording sound better and a great recording transcendent. It can also make bad discs sound worse. It seemed to me that the more I worked on my system the worse some recordings got. I'm thinking of some Rhino material in particular. Steve's discs all benefit greatly from my tweaks. In fact, I use a number of his discs to gauge the success or failure of a tweak by. Before I did any sort of system tweaking the differences between the DCC discs and any number of discs I consider to suck now was small. Now the difference is gigantic. If my tweaks are fooling me, they are also fooling a number of people who don't know what I've done but hear the difference on my system.

Now, let me get back to applying Groove-Glide to my 180gm disc before I hit it with the Zero-Stat.

Knock yourself out!!

[Richard Feirstein]

"And I read in New Scientist that they're letting blood again!"

That is very true. But it is based upon proven evidence that those little creatures know how to extract blood from places the good Dr's of the world have difficulty getting to, such as under the finger nail.

The former practice of letting blood to releave the body of bad substances was pure bad science. I am open to the use of the leach, and I understand that after a good session they taste especially good with butter and garlic; stir fried of course.

Can speaker spikes, felt pen applications, etc., make a difference, not in my opinion based upon the laws of physics and applied technology. Now give me some double blind repeatable procedures that demonstrate that people hear a difference and some decent rational and I will eat those leaches (make it humble pie instead, please).

But this is not a life or death matter, so if you hear a difference what do you care what I think?