Remastered Rap

[Grant]

ADVICE: If you have any negative additudes toward the rap/hip-hop genre, please do not post in the interest of keeping the peace and having to have the Gort twins step in. Thank you.

We all know how badly rap CDs have their dynamics slammed to hell. I have heard on a couple of CDs what a difference in the mastering can make with this type of music. Believe it or not, the cleaner mastering does improve the sound and listenability. The latest Outkast CD was mastered by Bernie Grundman.

What CDs do you think could benifit sonically from a remastering without compression?

Do you think more people would give rap a chance if it just sounded better and not so aggressive or in-your-face?

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by Grant
ADVICE: If you have any negative additudes toward the rap/hip-hop genre, please do not post in the interest of keeping the peace and having to have the Gort twins step in. Thank you.

We all know how badly rap CDs have their dynamics slammed to hell. I have heard on a couple of CDs what a difference in the mastering can make with this type of music. Believe it or not, the cleaner mastering does improve the sound and listenability. The latest Outkast CD was mastered by Bernie Grundman.

What CDs do you think could benifit sonically from a remastering without compression?

Do you think more people would give rap a chance if it just sounded better and not so aggressive or in-your-face?

Grant,

I was impressed with Steve's remastering on the Rock The First--Dance Music Edition, not Rap but, it shows the potential of his mastering methodology to more similar recordings. I do have a couple of Rap comps that were re-mastered where they do sound better and more dynamic than the original CDs. I think there is potential in the mastering to have Rap with more sonic fidelity.

Bob

[Gary]

Originally posted by Grant
...the rap/hip-hop genre....

Stupid question time!

This is the same genre?!? Hip-Hop is groovy ~ cool while Rap is aggressive.

Ya can tell I'm a white boy, huh? :D

Gary


PS:Gort TWINS??? So little Gort grew up? :D

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by Gary


Stupid question time!

This is the same genre?!? Hip-Hop is groovy ~ cool while Rap is aggressive.

Ya can tell I'm a white boy, huh? :D

Gary



Gary,

While these are not exact definitions by any means, to me Hip-Hop has always had a strong R & B and Funk influence with pure singing while Rap has the same R & B, Funk influence but with speaking in a Rap sintax versus singing. Often, Rap records sample "grooves" from other records, although not always the case and often are recorded with added instruments, bass and effects to the sampled or original groove line. Perhaps, Grant can further define the differences.

Bob :)

[Grant]

Hip-hop is actually a culture that was originally an outgrowth of the black and Latino Brooklyn section of NYC.

Rap music is not hip-hop but part of the hip-hop culture. Hip-hop music is any music with a certain musical flavor or style of young, black urban culture.

As far as music itself is concerned, hip-hop is more r&b influenced, while rap is pure in nature.

Rap tends to appeal more to many white people if it is mixed with hard rock, as with the Beastie Boys, Kid Rock, and Limp Biskit. Run D-M-C couldn't have made their crossover 1985 breakthrough without the help of Aerosmith.

These days, hip-hop tends to appeal more to black youth because not only does it incorporate rap but also 70s R&B styles, which until recently, was alien to most American suburban whites.

I maintain that after a bit of the artificial stuff, whites always go for the real deal, as with the original rock & roll, soul, and now rap. Rap is seen as the pure grade stuff when it gets political and to the point, which offends the sensabilities of many people.

The first rap record that is aknowledged to address real concerns of drugs, violence, and racism is "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five in 1982. Before then, all rap was nothing more than meaningless party records with boasting about a reputation and about partying, nothing offensive to the masses.

As far as hip-hop goes, there were the electronic pioneers like Afrika Bambatta that have connections to the dance club world. (Bob, you may know about this part). It was the early 80s and movies came out that capitalized on the breakdance movement like Krush Groove.

During that time, many positive, educational rappers emerged like KRS-One and Kool-Moe Dee. These guys tried to uplift the spirit of young people and stress education and respect.

Then, the hard rock/rap marriage came along in the form of the Beastie Boys, three suburban white teens from Boston, I think.

On the west coast, the black music scene was trying to deny or resist the influence of the hip-hop movement. Solar and Motown Records kept releasing smooth, sophisticated grooves with those from the east coast claiming that R&B was being "whitewashed", or being made palatable to whites.

The first rap group to bring overt sex into the picture was the 2-Live Crew in the late 80s, most known for "Me So Horny", inspired by the movie "Full Metal Jacket". Miami has always been the home of these types of artists like Clarence Reid (Blowfly).

About this time, the New Jack Swing style of R&B emerged with artists like Bobby Brown and Guy. This style of R&B mixed elements of rap. This was the beginning of what we have today.

The first artist to bring the reality of street violence and police brutality into the game on a major scale was Ice-T, followed by NWA in the late 80s. These artists came from Los Angeles, the first time the style had hit the west coast. Then all the others followed. The messages of the earlier educational rappers flew out the window.

The last two groups are the ones that get all the media attention and scrutiny from people from all corners. The last examples are what many people base their opinions about rap on. It also coincided with the rise in drug traffiking and gang activity across the country. It also coincided with the increasing problems with police brutality in L.A. The movie "Colors", starring Sean Penn and Robert Duvall made this an issue. Can you say, Rodney King?

Then many blacks got angry. The educational rap came back except that it got VERY political and racial. Public Enemy rasn't racial but spelled out exactly how many blacks really felt and didn't pull punches! But, then there were people like Sistah Souljah who were racist, blaming everything bad on whites.

Then the female rappers came on strong with their view of the male-dominated rap world.

The violent stuff is almost gone but the sexual stuff remains.

Hey, I didn't want this to become a discussion about the history of rap, but if it helps clear some misconceptions about it, oh well...

[BradOlson]

Originally posted by Grant

The violent stuff is almost gone but the sexual stuff remains.


As sex sells.

[Grant]

At least someone read it all the way through...

[Gary]

Thanks for the brief explanation, Grant! Sorry to get this off topic....

You said "Rap music is not hip-hop but part of the hip-hop culture. Hip-hop music is any music with a certain musical flavor or style of young, black urban culture. " I guess this means that Hip-Hop was around way before it got 'popular' as I am sure Rap was on the airwaves before Hip-Hop!

I do not have any Rap CDs but I can't see any benefits of remastered CDs with less compression. It's changing history!

On the other hand, the young folk all love Rap, Rock / Rap hybrids, etc., and I can't see them changing their tastes en-mass. I believe it will (if it's not already) become part of the mainstream as they will still demand to hear the music they like on the radio and in their CD players.

Well actually I do have Run D-M-C and Aerosmith! It's pretty good!

I think it's the image of Rap (like you said) that causes bad press, people disliking it, etc. So if they made CD's less aggressive and in-your-face, I don't think any more people would give it a chance. Instead, it would alienate the traditional buyers of Rap (they would not buy the music) and no one else would take a chance. Just because of the image.

Is it true that if a Rap artist meets a bad end, they become cult-ish / popular and could sell more music than when alive? Bad image again!

What this country needs is a 'pure' Rap hit, non offensive, danceable, snap yer fingers, dynamic kind of tune.... like (dare I say it?) a cross over tune.

Just my opinion.

[stacee strap-on]

Originally posted by Grant

Do you think more people would give rap a chance if it just sounded better and not so aggressive or in-your-face?
I think much of rap is inseparable from this aggressive, in-your-face quality you refer to. That is precisely what attracts many of its fans. If others don't give rap a chance, it's probably for the reasons Gary alluded to. In fact, his comments are pretty much dead-on. Personally I love many rap artists, and that includes Eminem, whose sexism I can tolerate because of his sheer brilliance. He and Outkast are quite simply the best in their field.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Gary
Thanks for the brief explanation, Grant! Sorry to get this off topic....

You said "Rap music is not hip-hop but part of the hip-hop culture. Hip-hop music is any music with a certain musical flavor or style of young, black urban culture. " I guess this means that Hip-Hop was around way before it got 'popular' as I am sure Rap was on the airwaves before Hip-Hop!

The first rap hits were "The Breaks" by Kurtis Blow in 1980, and "Rappers Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang in 1979. As I stated above, the R&B world tried to resist rap's influence and finally broke down around 1985. Both of the two remainiung Black-owned record companies Solar and Motown buckled under the resistance, although Motown came back after it was sold to MCA.

Polygram, CBS and MCA were the first majors to either sign rap artists or distribute indepandant labels that dealt with rap. Polygram was THE first because they had Kurtis Blow on the Mercury label in 1979.

I do not have any Rap CDs but I can't see any benefits of remastered CDs with less compression. It's changing history!

The reverse of everything we audiophiles stand for!



What this country needs is a 'pure' Rap hit, non offensive, danceable, snap yer fingers, dynamic kind of tune.... like (dare I say it?) a cross over tune.

Just my opinion.
???????? Can you say Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, Tone Loc? I guess you live under a rock!:D :D

[Gary]

Originally posted by Grant

???????? Can you say Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, Tone Loc? I guess you live under a rock!

Who? Cross over hits, Grant! Don't think I ever heard anything from these people on the radio! Maybe I am not listening to the right stations....

Actually I do like the MC Hamer guy's song but what an album title - Hammer Don't Hurt 'em??? I remember he declaired bankrupcy....

Whaddya mean, rock? I've got a nice, 75 pound door / cover to my abode that even cars and truck tires can't dent. But I can't live at home when it rains...... ! ;)

[ultron9]

I'd like to see a SH remaster of Eric B. & Rakim' "Paid In Full," Gangstar's and Tribe Called Quest's first LPs and anything by P.E. or KRS One

[Grant]

Originally posted by Gary


Who? Cross over hits, Grant! Don't think I ever heard anything from these people on the radio! Maybe I am not listening to the right stations....

I guess they weren't major hits in Canada back in 1989, 1990. Here, in the US, they were HUGE! Everywhere you looked!


Actually I do like the MC Hamer guy's song but what an album title - Hammer Don't Hurt 'em??? I remember he declaired bankrupcy....

He filed for bankruptsy because he didn't manage his money well and he was too generous to his friends. VH-1 did a behind the music on him a couple of years ago.

[Uncle Al]

Just another white boy chiming in.....

I never had the disdain that other's of my generation had for rap. After all, it seems the "music of rebellious youth" has always been the forerunner of a a musical revolution..... Alternative from Hard rock from rock n' roll from soul from blues and C & W from jazz from ragtime... or is it new age from progressive from jazz-rock from be-bop from neo-classical from romantic from classical from baroque.... the waltz was once a scandal! Even when the message of the music was distatsteful to me, I always tried to keep reality in check. Any kid listening to the music with his or her head screwed on straight, was well aware that the lyrics were a scenario. I know this because in MY DAY (old man voice) "Ozzy has satanic messages, Alice Cooper will make you cruel to small animals and children, the Rolling Stones will make you abuse women and David Bowie might make you have a change of lifestyle".

Bull - at 15 I knew these were all fiction, and I have faith in the current generation. If reality doesn't corrupt you, music doesn't stand a chance.

I seem to have noticed a "trend" away from sampling (or at least the overuse of it). Today's rap artists may still employ a DJ, but they (more often than not) also contain live musicians. However - regarding the era of rap music that was highly sampled, my question is: how do you re-master - from an audiophile standpoint - music that intentionally has been compressed and frequency modified (especially the low end)? How do you re-create the dynamic range of a performance when the master tape itself exhibits the compression and bass boost needed for the dance floor of a noisy club? I'm not really refering to Grandmaster Flash, who had a "live music" sound, but classic Beastie Boys, Run DMC, hell - even Beck! The performance was the tape, and I'm not convinced that (at least as far as dynamics are concerned) you could do little more then present the master as it is. And I don't think that it's that much different from what we already have...

But I would be happy to be pleasantly surprised.

[ascot]

I always liked Salt-N-Pepa's music and wouldn't mind seeing remastered editions of their first album and "Blacks Magic".

I didn't think Nirvana needed MFSL discs but I was pleasantly surprised when I got those.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Uncle Al


Even when the message of the music was distatsteful to me, I always tried to keep reality in check.

That's all I try to do!


Any kid listening to the music with his or her head screwed on straight, was well aware that the lyrics were a scenario. Bull - at 15 I knew these were all fiction, and I have faith in the current generation. If reality doesn't corrupt you, music doesn't stand a chance.
Exactly! But people who don't know or try to learn tend to take this rap stuff too seriously and at face value. They wouldn't watch a movie and think that's all real.

And it has never been conclusively PROVEN that listening to violent or sexually explicit music influences teens. It may affect some predisposed kids, but not all. But we can't go around filtering or removing everything that might possibly present a problem for some people.

[Beagle]

Originally posted by stacee strap-on
He and Outkast are quite simply the best in their field. So were John Gacey and Jeffrey Dahmer!:D ;)

Did you know that rap was actually invented by white people? Only they called it "square dancing" ;) Originally posted by Grant
But people who don't know or try to learn tend to take this rap stuff too seriously and at face value. They wouldn't watch a movie and think that's all realThere are some clever stories and use of words, certainly a form of expression. The depiction of "urban chaos" is similar to a lot of protest folk music in the 60's. However, I don't think there is much redeeming "musical" value. But I suppose that's not the point.

I agree there is way too much compression on the recordings. And far too much bass and not much sparkle in the extreme highs. It distracts one from the lyrical message.

[Jeffrey]

Originally posted by Beagle
So were John Gacey and Jeffrey Dahmer!:D ;)



Hey,

A little respect for Mr. Bundy, please!

-Jeffrey

[Matt]

Originally posted by Grant

And it has never been conclusively PROVEN that listening to violent or sexually explicit music influences teens. It may affect some predisposed kids, but not all. But we can't go around filtering or removing everything that might possibly present a problem for some people.

Good point, and I'm certainly against censorship or passing the blame on to popular entertainment. However, at the same time, when you hear rappers making strong anti-gay statements or detailing scenarios where they kill or beat their girlfriends/wives...well, when you go to a concert, and hear people cheering at this stuff and chanting along with the lyrics, I don't too compelled to support it. Sure, people can say, "It's just a joke and we get," but I think there's some indirect damage being done. People aren't going to hate gays or beat their women just because Eminem makes jokes about it, but at the same time, it does little to discourage it. Perhaps Eminem isn't just making a joke, but also trying to make music that reflects something in our culture we try to deny is there. Perhaps it's his way of saying, "Sure, some of you are shocked, but hey, plenty of people think it, and part of what my music is doing is breaking any illusions that it doesn't have a strong hold in our culture." Still, I don't feel all that comfortable about the way it's being put into music, that maybe some of these artists aren't that good to pull off what they would like to do, that in the end, they may be contributing to a problem.

[syogusr]

Without going into a long tirad about this "music", I think; or I hope most of us know that rap has gotten a bad rap because it is just that, mostly bad. Why do you think that many people, all across color lines; have grown a little weary of it? The country is in a bad enough shape as it is, without bad and nasty messages being put into some music that just happens to get radio airplay.... Oh well, I know I won't please some individuals with the above comments, but in the end, good will prevail, and if you read the USA Today article(s) I posted earlier today; you will see that sales are down all-across-the-board, people are just becoming increasingly dissatisfied with what they hear.

[Beagle]

Originally posted by Matt


Good point, and I'm certainly against censorship or passing the blame on to popular entertainment. However, at the same time, when you hear rappers making strong anti-gay statements or detailing scenarios where they kill or beat their girlfriends/wives...well, when you go to a concert, and hear people cheering at this stuff and chanting along with the lyrics, I don't too compelled to support it. Sure, people can say, "It's just a joke and we get," but I think there's some indirect damage being done. People aren't going to hate gays or beat their women just because Eminem makes jokes about it, but at the same time, it does little to discourage it. Perhaps Eminem isn't just making a joke, but also trying to make music that reflects something in our culture we try to deny is there. Perhaps it's his way of saying, "Sure, some of you are shocked, but hey, plenty of people think it, and part of what my music is doing is breaking any illusions that it doesn't have a strong hold in our culture." Still, I don't feel all that comfortable about the way it's being put into music, that maybe some of these artists aren't that good to pull off what they would like to do, that in the end, they may be contributing to a problem. I agree, and I do feel that unless you are posting a disclaimer or unless something is obvious parody, you are responsible for your "actions".

See, that's the problem with America (just as an example). Lack of discipline, lack of responsibility, turning a blind eye or falling asleep until reality checks like 9/11 or Columbine High rear their ugly heads. Then everyone is in shock and wondering why these things happen. Duh. These things will continue to "shock" people until they realize why they happen. Which will probably never happen, until it's too late, as usual. Not that rap music is directly responsible but it certainly does not lend itself to creating attitudes that will help resolve these kinds of things. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I apologize for the fact that this has nothing to do with remastering.

[Grant]

"So were John Gacey and Jeffrey Dahmer!"

Beagle, have you ever HEARD Outkast?

[Bob Lovely]

...and what about the sound quality of Rap music?

Bob ;)

[Beagle]

Originally posted by Grant
"So were John Gacey and Jeffrey Dahmer!"

Beagle, have you ever HEARD Outkast? Yeah, didn't care much for it.

But I was acknowledging that they were good in their field just like the others were in theirs. Everybody does something well. But not everything appeals to me. I like about 50% of most music. But that is a lot of music nevertheless. Originally posted by Bob Lovely
...and what about the sound quality of Rap music?

Bob ;) I find it a bit lacking in soundstage and depth, for the most part. I find a lot of the "instruments" clumped together and the vocal not buried enough. I did find the recent Blackalicious "Blazing Arrow" to have amazing production values, very spacey, almost ambient touches to the overall picture.

[Gary]

Well, Bob, since it was originally released compressed, I can't see them 'uncompressing' the music for any reason what so ever. It'll loose it's intensity. Perhaps some music is *meant* to be intense, in your face, challenging.

And since they are remastering classics *with* lots of compression that never had compression before, I think it is highly unlikely that they'd remaster originally compressed music as uncompressed.

Did that make sense?

Beagle, we are not much better here in Canada. In some situations, we are worse...