Sinatra Reprise question for MMM or anyone else

[czeskleba]

I'm a relatively new Sinatra fan and as such I've enjoyed your lengthy thread about the Sinatra Capitol stuff... although being primarily a cd listener it is disenheartening to hear about the sad shape of his Capitol work on CD.

I bought the "Classic Sinatra" disc a couple months ago and was really disappointed in the metallic, soulless, unlistenable sound. More recently, on the tip from Steve, I picked up the Capitol Collector's Series disc and was quite pleasantly surprised by how good it sounds (especially surprised because from past experience Ron Furmanek's name in the credits has been a red flag for trouble... I guess there's exceptions to every rule).

Anyway, I am looking for some tips on the Reprise cds... I don't have any Reprise-era stuff except DCC's Robin and the 7 Hoods. My question: what are the best-mastered Reprise-era cds out there, in your opinion? I'm looking solely for opinions on mastering quality, not opinions about which albums were better in performance or material. What would you rank as the best-mastered compilations/greatest hits discs from this era? Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.

[John Oteri]

Boy oh boy, I don't know if there are any!

I can't think of one that actually sounds good (sound, not performance).

Most sound screechy, with too much weird echo and top end boost. Frank's voice is often distorted and edgy and the stuff is compressed to death.

Steve has stated that the masters sound fine, so it must be the mastering?

[ArneW]

Hi,

I think the credit for the best mastered Reprise Sinatra CD would have to go to "Sinatra At The Sands" (20-bit EOTC issue), with "A Man Alone" being a close second.

Arne

[pdenny]

Originally posted by ArneW
Hi,

I think the credit for the best mastered Reprise Sinatra CD would have to go to "Sinatra At The Sands" (20-bit EOTC issue), with "A Man Alone" being a close second.

Arne

This is a real pickle for us Sinatra fans who don't have original vinyl and have to suffer the CD versions, because we have to have it all, of course! I agree with Arne but would add the first Sinatra/Basie collaboration and Concert Sinatra to the list too. Moonlight Sinatra sounds great but it hasn't been available for awhile, apparently.

[RDK]

Slightly off-topic (sorry!) but are there any differences (as there are wiith some of the Capitols) between the Reprise stereo and mono Sinatra lps? I ask because I've recently been buying some very clean and very cheap monos that sound pretty good. Without listening to them, I'll usually choose a mono over a stereo copy if only because I would assume the mono would be an earlier pressing and might be from a better tape or less-abused stamper.

Any comments on this?

Ray

[John Oteri]

RDK,

Difference? None that I've ever noticed. I think the mono LP's are "smoother" than their stereo counterparts. But of course, that is because the mono stuff was cut, and then cut out of the catalog in 1968, and the stereo stuff has been recut many times since then, all with differing sound.

[RDK]

Yeah, John, that's what i figured. For some reason, I've been seeing a lot of mono Reprise Sinatras popping up around L.A. lately. Many are in very nice shape.

[MMM]

Sorry I came to this so late - I just saw it. I'm flattered that this was directed to me. I think of the Reprise CD's mastering-wise, the best job I know of was with the 2nd Basie album -"It Might As Well Be Swing" in its 20-Bit "Entertainer of the Century" issue. Much better than the original vinyl - mono or stereo. Much better than the box set. Sure, sometimes the brass blares a bit too much for my taste, but it is the best I know of. Actually, I didn't realize how well recorded that album was until I heard this version. The weird echo you hear on some of this stuff John is probably from the way it was mixed back in the day. I can't say for sure - I would need you to ask me about a specific album. Don't hesitate, I'd like to help. I know Bill Putnam is a legend in the industry and all, but (IMO) he sometimes used the different electronic "enhancements" he designed too much. Maybe I'm blaming the wrong guy and if I am I apologize in advance, but to give one example I think he's responsible for putting that godawful "springy" reverb on Frank on most of the tracks on the original stereo mix of "Ring-A-Ding-Ding!". I know he was the engineer for that album. Even on "Sinatra and Strings" that he engineered, which is very well recorded, there is this weird sounding reverb on Frank. Even with this though, it still sounds great (at least on my early FS prefix Columbia mastered 3-color pressing - more on this later), but it's compressed quite a bit (as you mentioned John). Sometime before any of the CD's came out it seems that this album was remixed. This "other" stereo mix does not have the same weird sounding reverb on Frank. The problem is I can't say for sure when this mix was done, why, and what LP's have this "other" mix. I have a Japanese "Sinatra and Strings" that came out around 1985 with the two "bonus tracks" on it that has this "other" mix. Of U.S. copies I only have the original R9 pressing, & the aforementioned FS copy. I don't have an reissue LP's of this so I don't know when (if ever) this remix replaced the original stereo mix on U.S. LP's. As far as the "brightness" you hear John, some of that seems to be what Lee Herschberg likes when he mastered the CD's (IMO) (note - a few recent CD's were mastered by Keith Blake - avoid Keith EOTC master of "September Of My Years" at all costs - it'll peel the paint off your walls) and some of it seems to be (I've never heard a master so don't hold me to the following) the way they "produced" their mix down (reduced) masters back in the day at United/Western. For example, listen to Steve's Gold CD of "Robin and the 7 Hoods", mixed and mstered from the 3-tracks. Perfect job as usual, right? Now listen to the tracks that are also replicated on the 20-CD box if you have it, and if you can find one, an original stereo LP. The 20-CD set uses the original stereo mix that the LP used. Too much echo on this mix. Also too much high frequencies on both the LP and the 20-CD set - but in a different way on each. So far I'm thinking about the non-Jimmy Bowen material. The stuff he produced and Eddie Brackett engineered in general sounds pretty bad. First of all Eddie Brackett was no Lowell Frank or Lee Herschberg or Bill Putnam (read the comment by Alan Sides in Chuck Granata's book about this) and also he had to do what Jimmy Bowen told him to do. It seems Jimmy Bowen, who tried to make "commercial" records with Frank to try to get him in the Top 40 in the mid to late 60's, also wanted commercial, non-HiFi, AM radio friendly recordings/mixes. Maybe if some of this stuff Jimmy Bowen stuff was remixed by Steve it would sound a bit better, but I think it's a good guess to say that the mulittracks probably don't sound so hot either of this material. Ex. The "For My Dad" CD Steve did for Nancy and the Frank Sinatra Fund. Steve seems to have done what he could on "Something Stupid" but it's still not exactly demo quality fidelity.

Reprise vinyl - interesting situation. For simplicity's sake I'll stick to the albums from the 60's originally issued with some form of the 3-color label (with the bigger picture of Frank on it, whether it be the "anxious" looking Frank or the "happy" looking Frank). First of all, the first 10 (at least 9 - I'm not too sure about "Sinatra's Sinatra" - read on) Sinatra Reprise albums were originally issued while Frank owned Reprise outright, before he sold 2/3 to Warner Brothers. Before Reprise became part of WB, these LP's had labels that said "R" as the preface for a given album's catalog # for MONO, and R9 for STEREO (ex. "Ring-A-Ding-Ding! R-1001 MONO, R9-1001 STEREO). I'm not entirely sure where these records were mastered, but I spoke to Lee Herschberg once and he thought they might have been done at Radio Recorders. All of these have a picture of an "anxious" looking Frank. the labels do not make any mention of Warner Bros. at all. At the top they say something about 1961 Reprise Records, even if the album wasn't released then (this is off the top of my head - I don't remember all the exact words. The second pressing of these first 9 or 10 albums have "F" prefaces on the label for MONO, and FS prefaces for STEREO. These normally have a picture of a "happy" looking Frank although some early F/FS records still have the "anxious" looking Frank on the label. These albums were mastered and pressed by Columbia. These labels make mention of Warner Bros. near the bottom. These are general rules, but some oddball stuff happened during the transitional period when Frank sold 2/3 of Reprise to W.B. I have a copy of FS-1008 (mastered and pressed by Columbia) with a "happy" Frank label for side 1 and an "anxious" Frank label on side 2. I think I came once came across a "transitional" stereo copy of "The Concert Sinatra" that had "anxious Frank" labels, R9 as the preface, but mentioned Warner Bros. near the bottom of the label and was made by Columbia. I didn't buy it - the condition wasn't that great - I probably should have though just because it was different. I've also seen a few occasions where during this "transitional" period, it seemed they were trying to use up earlier remaining labels that had the info with "1961" near the top of the label, but inked it out since WB now owned 2/3 of the company (I have to try to remember to check my collection tonight - I think I have a copy of one of the albums with this done to the label - after I check the details I'll try to remember to post them here). I'm not getting into the cover variations right now with regard to the catalog #'s. "Sinatra's Sinatra" I'll make an exception for however because I need to to properly explain the following. It was originally issued with a gatefold cover, but every one I've ever seen has a record with "F" or "FS" on the label just like the ones in the second, non-gatefold cover, so it's possible that no copies exist with R or R9 on the label (if someone has one let us know - please). I have an original stereo gatefold copy STILL SEALED with a sticker on the cover with a reference to "Call Me Irresponsible" - no way am I opening this one to check.

Stereo/Mono, sound of different records, etc. - it'll have to wait for another day, I have to leave - sorry.

MMM

[Steve Hoffman]

MMM,

Two quick things.

Yes, the early west coast Reprise stuff was mastered at Radio Recorders by Ami Hadani.

And, the CD version you like of Sinatra/Basie "It Might As Well Be Swing" was a remix from the three-track, with a bunch of extra bass added for good measure.

Sounds better than the original compressed stereo mix, but the three-tracks sound even better still.

Some of the songs on that album were recorded on the old Ampex 300-3 tube machine, and some of the songs were recorded on three tracks of a newly acquired Scully transistor four-track machine (the same machine that Sinatra/Jobim was recorded on).

Can anyone's eagle ears tell which is which?

Hee hee...

[MMM]

Thanks Steve,

I agree there is a lot of bass on this CD but it really didn't bother me. It wasn't poor sounding (quality) bass to me ears, and this disc is (as you said) better than the other issues. I was quite surprised with the sound when I first got it. I'd love to hear the three-tracks. I'll have to give another listen to this album to see if I can figure out which songs were done on a tube machine. It should be interesting. That's surprising to hear that they would change to another machine while a high profile project such as this was in between being completed. Did they use all four tracks of the tape when they switched tape machines Steve, or did they just use three of the four since that was how many tracks they were using up until that point for this album? I noticed some tracks sounded different than others, but I always chalked that up to what often happens when albums are not recorded all on the same night and other projects were being recorded in the meantime in the same studio.

MMM

[Steve Hoffman]

Quickly, United used two machines to record Sinatra. Three actually.

On the Basie stuff, they had their mono machine going, and the "A" machine (three-track Ampex) and the "B" machine (three tracks of a four-track Scully).

There was a problem with some static on some of the tracks on the "A" machine. Those songs were "intercut" from the "B" machine instead.

One can find the same thing on "September Of My Years".

[MMM]

Thanks Steve

MMM

[Steve Hoffman]

You're welcome.

I'd say that there were about 5 people in the world interested in this type of information. You and I are two of them! :rolleyes: :D

[MMM]

I guess great minds think alike. I know my buddy Chuck enjoys this type of info too - I'll send him the thread.

MMM

[Steve Hoffman]

Yes indeed, send it to Charles G.

That makes 3 of us!:)

[Bob Lovely]

Steve & MMM,

I am definitely interested in that kind of recording history!

Bob :D

[Steve Hoffman]

Wow. That's 4 of us!

[mcow1]

5:D

[Angel]

A STRONG 6!!!!

[RDK]

Nah, I have absolutely no interest in this stuff at all.

I'm gonna go and watch me some cartoons...


:D

[RDK]

But then again...

Hey, Steve or MMM, do either of you know if Sinatra ever recorded at Gold Star? My father-in-law swears that he remembers seeing Sinatra record there back when he used to visit Dave at the studio, but I'm not sure if he's remembering things correctly. If not lps, then maybe some soundtrack work?

Ray

[MMM]

RDK - sorry if I sound uninformed, but who's Dave?

I never heard of any Sinatra recordings being made at Gold Star, but Steve is the Gold Star expert so hopefully he can help.

MMM

[MMM]

Wait a minute now...

The "Reprise Repertoire Theatre" stuff was recorded at quite a few studios - I'll have to check the credits listed for the studios listed on the LP's and CD's.

MMM

[MMM]

Dave - you mean one of the owners of Gold Star, right?

[Steve Hoffman]

Dave is Dave Gold, the builder of Gold Star Studios.

No, Frank did not do any official recording at Gold Star. He might have been there to record a demo, or to keep a friend company while THEY recorded a demo.

Gold Star was a popular demo studio because it was under half the price of an "official" studio and there were no pesky union contracts to fill out...;)