View Full Version : Any info on the state of Motown's masters?
trhunnicutt
05-21-2002, 04:56 PM
Specifically, Marvin Gaye?
I've always wondered how awesome "What's Going On" would sound if it had the Hoffman touch applied to it, CD or LP.
For the life of me, I can't believe that hasn't had the audiophile treatment on LP.
Any thoughts or comments for those in the know re: licensing issues or the state of the masters?
Marvin Gaye - next to Sinatra, the best singer I've ever heard (IMO). "What's Going On" is definetly one of the greatest albums ever, and deserves a definitive Steve Hoffman mastering. Are the tapes in good shape? Well, I've never been in a tape vault to pull this out and listen, but judging by the "Deluxe Edition" 2-CD set from last year, it sounds like the tapes are in good shape (I'm speaking of the original album tracks). However, I prefer the Gavin Lurssen (I don't remember if that's the correct spelling) black slipcase single CD from 1995 (?). Nice tubey ambiance on it. Not perfect though, but better than this newest CD. This new version is not horrible, but it sounds somewhat sterile, and sounds like it's EQ'd a bit to "improve" it (in the non-audiophile sense of the term).
CM Wolff
05-21-2002, 06:36 PM
I have no info re: the state of the masters, and although it would be interesting to hear Steve Hoffman versions of Gaye classics, the current reissues (particularly the Deluxe Editions) are already outstanding. So far, I think the Let's Get It On reissue is the best Deluxe Edition yet, with bonus material that meets or exceeds the quality of the original album (specifically the Perren/Mizell, Hal Davis, and Willie Hutch session material).
Looking forward to the I Want You D.E. that comes out in a couple months....
Grant
05-21-2002, 06:50 PM
One listen to the "Detroit mix" on the deluxe CD and you'll forget all about the sonic nightmare of the final mix.
trhunnicutt
05-21-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by CM Wolff
I have no info re: the state of the masters, and although it would be interesting to hear Steve Hoffman versions of Gaye classics, the current reissues (particularly the Deluxe Editions) are already outstanding. So far, I think the Let's Get It On reissue is the best Deluxe Edition yet, with bonus material that meets or exceeds the quality of the original album (specifically the Perren/Mizell, Hal Davis, and Willie Hutch session material).
Looking forward to the I Want You D.E. that comes out in a couple months....
I agree that the DE is outstanding. I also agree with MMM that it seems to have been EQd just a little to make it louder, and maybe a tad brighter.
I'd love to hear the orginal masters given the Hoffman touch on vinyl, just like what was performed on the CCR titles.
I Want You is also an awesome LP. Glad to hear that it's getting the DE treatment.
Too bad that Universal doesn't get these remasters on 180G vinyl, like they did the Marley Catalog.
RetroSmith
05-21-2002, 08:19 PM
Actually, the Motown vault is very complete, very, very few things are missing. One of the big problems is that Motown would NORMALLY do 5 or 6 mixes of any given title until a final mix was approved by Quality Control for release. So, now, 35 years later, the 6 mixes are still in the tape vault, so which one was REALLY used for the 45? Sometimes, they ALL were!!! "Its The Same Old Song" was mixed 5 times, and ALL FIVE mixes were cut laquers on and pressed from.
So, that accounts for some of the various versions of the Motown hits. Personally, I think its kinda fun to hear different versions. Sometimes, one of them is in stereo, and thats the only stereo mix of a particular song.
And I LOVE hearing Motown in stereo, you can really hear the different parts.
Another problem is Motown Remixing. Motown had custom designed (by their engineering dept) tube equalizers, echo units, compressors and all kinds of goofy external units to shape the sound.
Trying to remix the multis today can be done, but its almost impossible to achieve the same result they did in 1964, because the sonic stamp of todays equipment just isnt the same. Its tough to get that punchy, overly compressed, distorted , "splattered" drum sound today, like on "Please Mr Postman". Technically, it was "wrong", but boy Oh BOY is that part of the Motown Sound. Gotta have that!!
Mikey
Steve Hoffman
05-21-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by mikey5967
Another problem is Motown Remixing. Motown had custom designed (by their engineering dept) tube equalizers, echo units, compressors and all kinds of goofy external units to shape the sound.
Trying to remix the multis today can be done, but its almost impossible to achieve the same result they did in 1964, because the sonic stamp of todays equipment just isnt the same. Its tough to get that punchy, overly compressed, distorted , "splattered" drum sound today, like on "Please Mr Postman". Technically, it was "wrong", but boy Oh BOY is that part of the Motown Sound. Gotta have that!!
Mikey
Great post, Mikey!
RetroSmith
05-21-2002, 08:34 PM
Steve, coming from the Master, thats quite a compliment. Thanks!!
It must have been fun to have been a Motown recording engineer in those days.
Mikey
trhunnicutt
05-21-2002, 09:26 PM
Steve,
Have you ever had the itch to get your hands on "What's Going On" and perform your magic?
Steve Hoffman
05-21-2002, 09:32 PM
Sure.
I was told that the master was not in good shape anymore, and a safety has been in use since the 1980's...
That damn Scotch 211.
trhunnicutt
05-21-2002, 09:39 PM
Steve,
Ouch. They probably ran that original tape into the ground. What a shame.
On a different slant, what do you think the licensing fee would be on a title like that? Ballpark guess?
Steve Hoffman
05-21-2002, 09:40 PM
Not a clue. Fifty grand, maybe?
trhunnicutt
05-21-2002, 10:04 PM
Thanks for the guess. Interesting.
Grant
05-22-2002, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Sure.
I was told that the master was not in good shape anymore, and a safety has been in use since the 1980's...
That damn Scotch 211.
I understand the first generation master was used on the new deluxe set.
Bob Lovely
05-22-2002, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by mikey5967
Actually, the Motown vault is very complete, very, very few things are missing. One of the big problems is that Motown would NORMALLY do 5 or 6 mixes of any given title until a final mix was approved by Quality Control for release. So, now, 35 years later, the 6 mixes are still in the tape vault, so which one was REALLY used for the 45? Sometimes, they ALL were!!! "Its The Same Old Song" was mixed 5 times, and ALL FIVE mixes were cut laquers on and pressed from.
So, that accounts for some of the various versions of the Motown hits. Personally, I think its kinda fun to hear different versions. Sometimes, one of them is in stereo, and thats the only stereo mix of a particular song.
And I LOVE hearing Motown in stereo, you can really hear the different parts.
Another problem is Motown Remixing. Motown had custom designed (by their engineering dept) tube equalizers, echo units, compressors and all kinds of goofy external units to shape the sound.
Trying to remix the multis today can be done, but its almost impossible to achieve the same result they did in 1964, because the sonic stamp of todays equipment just isnt the same. Its tough to get that punchy, overly compressed, distorted , "splattered" drum sound today, like on "Please Mr Postman". Technically, it was "wrong", but boy Oh BOY is that part of the Motown Sound. Gotta have that!!
Mikey
Mikey & Friends,
Great post! I would love, however, to see what Steve could accomplish with the multi-tracks using "vintage" equipment. I think we would be quite amazed. I believe the final product would have that circa 60's Motown sound but, with a LOT more fidelity. Outside of the Hitsville USA box, I have been disappointed with CDs of Motown material recorded prior to about 1967. I believe this can only be corrected by having someone with an affinity for vintage equipment, such as Steve, work with the multi-tracks. Steve, better get that Fairchild Stereo Compressor/Limiter ready, just in case!
Bob :)
jason r. baur
05-22-2002, 07:44 AM
The Hoffman touch would be welcome, as always, but I am quite happy with Gavin Lurssen's mastering on the deluxe What's Going On CD from the mid-90s (which I believe is the same as the 1998 remaster). On the strength of that CD and his 2000 Toots & the Maytals best-of, Lurssen is right near the top of my favorite remastering engineers.
That's pretty depressing that the original master of "What's Going On" isn't in the greatest shape.
Ken_McAlinden
05-22-2002, 08:27 AM
Sonic Nightmare?!...the sonic nightmare of the final mixOkay, I'll take the bait. The final mix is not a sonic nightmare. The Detroit mix is very cool, and works especially well on the funkier tracks like "Right On" and "Inner City Blues", but the final mix makes the whole thing hang together as a single cohesive work of genius and I love it. I suppose I could also use the "50,000,000 Elvis fans Can't Be Wrong" defense, but this album in its original version does not really need my help to defend itself. :)
Motown Stereo
There are some interesting Motown threads already on this forum, and an interesting peek at mid-60s "Motown Stereo" was recently released on CD. They released a remastered twofer of Smokey Robinson and the Miracles' "Going to a Go-Go" and "Away We a Go-Go". The only remixes are supposedly the bonus tracks. "Going to a Go-Go" was originally released in 1965. It has all of the hallmarks of Motown stereo mixes of the time including increased distortion versus the mono versions of the same tracks. Some tracks are better than others. "Away We a Go-Go" was released a year later, and for the most part sounds like the engineers were getting a better handle on stereo mixing.
Unfortunately, while "Going to a Go-Go" is one of the greatest of early-mid 60s pop albums and is IMHO on par with any album by The Beatles prior to "Rubber Soul", "Away We a Go-Go" is a more typical Motown "some killer, but mostly filler" effort.
On the positive side, some of the less anthologized tracks on "Going to a Go-Go" such as "From Head to Toe" are also some of the better sounding ones.
Regards,
I don't think I'd call it a sonic nightmare, either, and I still think it beats the pants off the Detroit mix. It was interesting to hear the first time, but it really doesn't have the same great vibe of Marvin's final mix. The lush production with the strings, the overdubbed vocals, etc. adds a lot to the album and Marvin's utopian vision.
CM Wolff
05-22-2002, 10:08 AM
Unfortunately, while "Going to a Go-Go" is one of the greatest of early-mid 60s pop albums and is IMHO on par with any album by The Beatles prior to "Rubber Soul", "Away We a Go-Go" is a more typical Motown "some killer, but mostly filler" effort.
I can understand this point, although I have to tell you I was pleasantly surprised with the strength of Away We A Go-Go. Going to a Go-Go has always been heralded and I was expecting Away We A Go-Go to be a total throwaway. Far from it - I love the covers of the non-Motown originating tracks like "You Don't Have To Say You Love Me". All in all, I am glad both albums exist and were paired together - what a great two-fer.
Also, from this new Motown Classic Album series, do not miss the Diana Ross debut album.
CM Wolff
05-22-2002, 10:14 AM
I'm with Grant in that I prefer the Detroit mix, although that is the best thing about the Deluxe Edition - both mixes exist. The best of all worlds.
The only issue I have with the Detroit mix is that there is the static on some of the tracks that the booklet warns of but that I find jarring when listening through headphones.
Besides the two great Marvin deluxe editions, I want to give a big thumbs up to the complete Marvin/Tammi duets, especially the second disc with the lush "Easy" album. Tracks like "California Soul" sound great.
RetroSmith
05-22-2002, 10:23 AM
>>>>All this reminds me of a GREAT double LP pairing on Cd...The Ventures "Knock Me Out" and "Where The Action Is".
These two are two mid 60s slices of Pure Go Go Instrumental sizzle. Perfect for your next twist party!!!
The Ventures Rule.....
Bob Lovely
05-22-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by mikey5967
>>>>All this reminds me of a GREAT double LP pairing on Cd...The Ventures "Knock Me Out" and "Where The Action Is".
These two are two mid 60s slices of Pure Go Go Instrumental sizzle. Perfect for your next twist party!!!
The Ventures Rule.....
Mikey,
Motown?
Bob
Ken_McAlinden
05-22-2002, 10:44 AM
I love the covers of the non-Motown originating tracks like "You Don't Have To Say You Love Me". Smokey hits the high notes easier than Dusty Springfield on that one. Actually, if you are interested in hearing Smokey operating in his upper singing register, Away we A-Go-Go is not a bad place to start. The big single off of it was "(Come 'Round Here) I'm the One You Need" which is a great Holland-Dozier-Holland number in the Four Tops mold that really pushes Smokey's voice.
Regards,
Grant
05-22-2002, 12:28 PM
The Detroit mix of "What's Going On" represents Marvin's original vision of what the album should've been.
I love the twin vocals competing with each other. One voice on the left, one on the right. The final mix destroys all of that.
The sound quality is superb on the Detroit mix.
For my money the Supremes' "you Keep Me Hanging On" is the perfect pop song. Not totally representitive of the mid-60s sound, IMO, but up there!
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