cartridge tracking force

[Holy Zoo]

Hey everyone,

My Music Hall MMF5 turntable came with a Goldring G1012 MM cart. I'm using the recommended tracking force (1.6 grams if memory serves correct).

I'm curious what increasing or decreasing the tracking force might sound like. Is there a general rule of thumb?

I presume that more weight means better tracking but more wear and tear on both the vinyl and the stylus. Less weight would yield the inverse.

But what about the sound? Anyone know?

[Grant]

Better to slightly over track than under track. Under tracking causes excessive wear/damage to the grooves.

[Holy Zoo]

Thanks Grant!

But still, my real question is: what does over/under do to the sound?

[Grant]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
Thanks Grant!

But still, my real question is: what does over/under do to the sound?
Undertracking distorts the sound. Slightly overtracking will just give you a tad more surface noise.

Is that a good table? I'm considering the lower-cost one if I can be shown what improvements i'll actually gain by getting it.

[Sckott]

http://www.redtrumpet.com/dbimgs/91284lg.jpg?sid=1169593004

The Music Hall TT's are what I playfully call a "generic Rega" because they look a lot like them. The arm is really the "heart" of a table like a Rega Planar 3, and side by side they look strikingly similar to something like the MH5. If I were to point someone to a low-cost starter table, it would definately be the MH's. I would even recommend the table to someone like Grant. :)

But Grant's right about undertracking. You should always feel justified in tracking your cart 1/4 oz higher than what's suggested. The worse thing you can do is ruin the walls of the record if you UNDERtrack, especially on records cut "hot".

I love my Rega 3 with the RB300 arm, and Grant, if you don't mind spending the money by using possibly the most sweet sounding yet most popular arm ever developed, go for the Rega Planar 3, stock (choose your favorite color too!) and leave the Music Hall to someone less enthusiastic about vinyl (nudge nudge:p)

Just kidding of course. The MH (like the Rega) enjoyed often, will push you into bigger and better things in the audio world. I don't wanna move yet, but I can't wait until I do!

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Grant


Is that a good table? I'm considering the lower-cost one if I can be shown what improvements i'll actually gain by getting it.

Thanks again Grant!

I love the sound from this table. It was easy to set up. The cartridge comes already installed & aligned - all you have to do is set up the antiskate weight and set the tracking force and away you go. In fact, the built in gram scale marks on the weight, once calibrated by the instructions that came with the TT, matched perfectly with my Shure tracking scale.

However, I can't in all honesty say that I've compared lots of turntables in person and that this sounds better than others in the same price class. Instead, I relied on a few dozen reviews I read on the net. Combined witht he *great* price that most dealers have on this model, it made it an easy decision.

Anyways, I've been extremely happy with it. I think it sounds fantastic.

HZ

p.s you can find it typically going for $450 shipped.

[Richard Feirstein]

If you had a SHURE test record with increasingly higher output stress tests you would be able to readily hear the point at which the styus starts to mistrack. It is not subtle. Very few cartridges can track all of their tests without mistracking, except of course their V15 series. The V15 series can track very cleanly at about .8g. Since no commercial records (War of 1812 excepted) come even close to presenting very highly modulated groves, cartridges without the V15's tracking ability pass muster in the real world, but most require about 1.5 g to achieve this level of performance. I leave my V15 at 1.2 g and don't give it a second thought. Mistracking is to be avoided because it can cause damage to the record. I understand that less is better but that even 1.5 is low enough to avoid excessive grove wear so long as mistracking is not experienced. I could loan you one of my test disks if you want to follow up on this.

[Scott Wheeler]

Tracking force recomendations by most manufacturers is usually given in a range. My cartridge manufacturer suggests 1.8- 2.0 grms. I set it at 1.94. I did my final settings by ear. never exceed the maximum tracking force suggested by the manufacturer. You will be putting more stress on the suspension than it is designed to handle and you run the risk of breaking the cartridge. Also keep in mind that changes in tracking force affect VTA.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Scott Wheeler
Tracking force recomendations by most manufacturers is usually given in a range. My cartridge manufacturer suggests 1.8- 2.0 grms. I set it at 1.94. I did my final settings by ear. never exceed the maximum tracking force suggested by the manufacturer. You will be putting more stress on the suspension than it is designed to handle and you run the risk of breaking the cartridge. Also keep in mind that changes in tracking force affect VTA.
Well, yes! I should have made that clear. The cartridge manufacturers always give you a minimum and maximum, and ideally one should pick a value somewhere in between. I always pick the maximum value suggested and don't track any higher.
Since the calibrations on my table aren't accurate by a long shot, I use the Shure tracking force gauge.

[Beagle]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
I presume that more weight means better tracking but more wear and tear on both the vinyl and the stylus. Less weight would yield the inverseTrack nearest the maximum force indicated. Less wear and sounds better too. I think it translates to something like several thousand pounds per square inch so tracking near the maximum of the range does not really increase wear. If you track too low the stylus bangs around in the groove taking out tiny pieces over time. If you keep your records any stylus clean (clean it after each LP side) both should last indefinitely.

[Richard Feirstein]

The ideal way to set this force is to make sure eveything is properly setup first and then use an accurate guage like the one Shure sells. Then get a good test record with increasingly more intensely recorded test tracks. Set the force just above the point where mistracking is audible but no higher than recommended by the vender of the cartridge. The V-15 series makes it through at about .8 g so I set it at 1, or just a hair higher. Most other products are the market (fine as they are) need at least 1.5 and most can't deal with the most intensly modulated groves (not a problem since no commercial release comes close to those levels). Perhaps the cannon shots on that 1812 piece comes close on some releases.

[Martin M]

"I'm curious what increasing or decreasing the tracking force might sound like. Is there a general rule of thumb? "

Too high a weight generally sounds a bit dull (sonically and musically) and bass-heavy, too low a weight a bit trebley, lacking in weight and a little prone to mistracking.

Set tracking weight by ear using a 'normal' album who's music you enjoy, start at the top of the manufacturer's range and work down until you hit the 'sweet-spot' (there's normally one) and stick there. If it sounds good it is good, I wouldn't recommend bothering with a test disc for this job in most circumstances unless your aim is to optomise your system for 'torture' discs rather than the sound quakity of the majority of discs.

Also make sure the turntable is good and level - you'll need a good spirit level (the Home Depot types pretty useless for this job) - a Mana Acoustics level is pricey but excellent.

[Richard Feirstein]

If you set the force too high the shank holding the stylus will deflect changeing the angle of attack of the stylus increasing and decreasing its angle of attack. This is a dynamic change in the specified tracking angle. Golden ears may hear the impact of this changing specification. Also, depending upon the design of the cartridge body, the shank could be forced in contact with a physical component inside the cartridge/shank mount dampening its movement. Best thing to address ones interest in this is issue is to try it and see what you hear.

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Richard Feirstein
I could loan you one of my test disks if you want to follow up on this.

Thanks Richard, that's a very generous offer! But, actually, from you advice I'm now looking for a used copy on ebay (hey, if you know a source of new test records, let me know!).

Thanks again!

HZ

[Richard Feirstein]

Hay, why don't I burn it onto a CD-R for you; yea, that's the ticket.

[feinstein]

Richard F wrote:

The V-15 series makes it through at about .8 g so I set it at 1, or just a hair higher.

I add:

You know, I've had a bunch of very medium to high end moving coil cartridges over the years (the Benz Glider, the Linn Arkiv, the Grado something-or-other) and none of them track as well on most records as the new Shure V15 cartridge that I bought about 2 years ago. I have good cartridge setup tools (the Wally tools), so it isn't bad VTA or overhang. I just think that the Shure is designed to stay in the groove. I know that a lot of high-ender's pooh-pooh the V15, but I've found it to be really satisfying when playing my records, whether vintage or modern-day.

[Steve Hoffman]

The V-15 is our ref at the studio. Tracks everything the best, and is razor-flat from like DC to Light.

It's the only cart that I know of that is TOTALLY accurate. Of course, we need that in our work. For actual consumers, your tastes might vary depending on the "sound" of your phono stage...

[feinstein]

Steve,
Back in the 1970's, when I was first introduced to high-end audio, the guys at "Pro Musica" in Urbana, Illinois fitted my Connesieur turntable with a Shure V15 Type III G cartridge with the spherical stylus. Can you think of any reason why they would have done this? Did the spherical stylus have any benefits over the elliptiical?

[Steve Hoffman]

Well, I use that tip to play old 45's. Hits a different part of the groove, less noise that way, also much easier on some 45 records that were NOT pressed on vinyl.

Standard tip for (in the old days) radio broadcasting turntables that played a lot of "back-cued" 45 singles...

[Richard Feirstein]

For modern stereo records the eliptical stylus is superior in that it tends to track the grove in a more ideal location than the non-eliptical stylus. Call Shure, my experience has been that for a rather nominal charge they will exchange a broken stylus for a new one. See if they will send you their latest to replace the current one you have. Last time I did this (about 3 years ago) they charged me about $35.00. Very nice American company with great consumer practices. The price of the V15 sure has edged up quite a bit over the years. In my experience, some audio snobs won't consider a product unless it carries a high price and I think the reasonable price was the source of some of the negative attitudes seen over the years. I have never read anything but glowing reviews for this product.:D

[sgb]

Originally posted by feinstein
Steve,
Back in the 1970's, when I was first introduced to high-end audio, the guys at "Pro Musica" in Urbana, Illinois fitted my Connesieur turntable with a Shure V15 Type III G cartridge with the spherical stylus. Can you think of any reason why they would have done this? Did the spherical stylus have any benefits over the elliptiical?

There were a lot of audiophiles using the G version back then Richard. I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but J. Gordon Holt was claiming that it sounded better than the elliptical version.

[Steve Hoffman]

Not better, just "different". ;)


Tone arms are SO much better now. Use an elliptical!

[feinstein]

Richard,

I think you misunderstood my post. I got rid of my Shure V15 Type III G cartridge many years ago, I now use the latest Shure V15 cartridge with the hyper-elliptical tip. I have it mounted on a Linn table with the Ekos v1 arm. The new model of the V15 is the one that my comments were directed at, not the old Type III from the 1970's.

I'm glad to hear that my good experiences with this cartridge weren't laughed at by the audiophiles and other folks that are more "cutting edge" than I am. I was almost ashamed to admit that I liked this Shure V15 cartridge! It's not in vogue to like the Shure stuff any more! I think that the latest trend is for cartridges that cost way more and have a much lower output than the Shure.

I also like the fact that I can feed my Marantz 7C directly from the cartridge without the need for a step-up pre-pre-amp.

[Richard Feirstein]

I actually have a V-15 Type IV (and a V-15 Type III, I no longer use). One can readily upgrade the device thorugh an upgrade to the latest stylus assembly. My comments about Shure's replacement policy for broken stylus assemblies applies to both product lines. I still have an M series Shure cartridge with G and several 78 rpm stylus assemblies, but have not used those in a long time.

[Scott Wheeler]

There should be no shame in the enjoyment of music.