Home Computer Remastering Question

[Chris Desjardin]

I currently use Cool Edit 2000 with the EQ and Remastering plug ins to clean up my vinyl transfers. I have 2 questions about remastering on my computer, and I know there are people on this board that do this all the time. I hope they can help me. First of all, is there any sonic difference in the plug ins of Cool Edit 2000 and Cool Edit pro. Assuming I will not be using the multi track capabilities of Pro, is there any other benefit of upgrading from 2000 to Pro?

Secondly, I have read all kinds of people saying they do their work in "32 bit float" and then dither down to 16 bit. Does this go through the sound card? I have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card, but I believe it is only 18 bit D/A. Would I still be able to work in 32 bit resolution, or would I need a new card (not possible at this time).

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Sckott]

"Is there any sonic difference in the plug ins of Cool Edit 2000 and Cool Edit pro"

No. Not that I've noticed. I have Cool Edit Pro and the plugins work the same way as on Cool Edit. Big difference here is, PRO is multitrack synch and mixing.

"Secondly, I have read all kinds of people saying they do their work in "32 bit float" and then dither down to 16 bit. Does this go through the sound card?"

No. You can sample down to 16bit without a sound card attached. It's sampled through the program and processor, and another PCM/WAV file is created. The sound card itself doesn't need to even BE there, but it helps when listening back to your finished product!

Cool Edit does a wonderful job at downsampling 24==>16bit.

[Todd Fredericks]

Chris,

You're card should be fine. The finished result will be 16 bit. What the 32 bit float will give you is at least 14 "extra" bits to play with before "directly" affecting the music's bits. Everytime you do a processing step it will affect a bit. If you worked only in 16 bit and did only eq, it would degrade the music's integrity by 1 bit. I have a few suggestions:

Main thing is always keep it simple and fun. The most direct road (minimal interconnects/phonostage to PC/etc.) from the source will keep it purer.

For very clean & well mastered recordings, just do direct 16 bit to the PC and forgo any editing/processing. Just practice getting a good level so you don't clip and when to start and stop the recording. This will be the purest way of doing it (experiment) and you will be bypassing dithering/etc. Who cares if you have a few very, very slight tics occasionally?

For troubled vinyl (bad mastering, eq adjustments, MFSL Beatles, heavy click removal, etc.). Record at 32 bit float (18 bits will contain the music info and the other 14 will give you more editing power). Do all your work (still try to just do the barest amount of processing/don't over cook the buffalo) and then find an acceptable dithering setting that's not to aggressive or silly.

Another thing to consider (if you have the equipment) is to do some of your eq/mono combining or choosing left or right/etc. in the analog domain before going into the computer. Just hook up the equipment after the phonostage and do real time work (keeping it simple/not too aggressive/don't toughen the meat).

Anyway, I hope this helps...

Todd

[Grant]

Actually, 32-bit float is 24-bit mantissa with 8-bit exponent that gives you an infinite dynamic range. You could triple the volume and not clip. This is perfect for processing because you can process to your heart's content without destroying your sound. Then you take it all and use dithering to get back to 16-bit.

You can de-click, clean, EQ, whatever to your files with NO damage. Chris, why not get the NR plugin? Better yet, just upgrade to Cool Edit Pro!

[Chris Desjardin]

Thanks Grant. I knew you used this and I hoped you would reply. I have the NR plug in. Now it's hard for me to upgrade to Cool Edit Pro, because the cost of 2000 with all the plug ins is almost what Pro costs. A stupid mistake a year or so ago when I bought it. Now it will be $200 more to go to Pro. I guess I will have to stay with 2000 for the time being. The general opinion is that there is no difference in the quality between the two.

How do I work in 32 bit and how do I get it back to 16 bit?

[Grant]

Simple! When you record with Cool Edit, just set it to record 32-bit, or convert your 16-bit to 32-bit FLOAT by hitting F11 with the file open.

To dither back to 16-bit, hit the F11 key and configure things accordingly.

[reidc]

Chris,
Did you start your recording "hobby" using the Santa Cruz, or did you begin using another card and then upgrade to the Santa Cruz?

I am currently working with a SB-Live Value(non-5.1). I am getting an annoying hum when recording vinyl, with or without my TT being grounded to my receiver. Just for kicks- I recorded a CD source primarily to get an idea of how much higher in volume the CD source recording would be over the Vinyl(at least 10 DB higher!!), and I noticed I got the same hum with the CD source.

I thought I had a grounding problem with the TT, but now it turns the problem is wider. I am not sure if my soundcard could be the problem or if I still have a ground loop somewhere. I honestly had been planning to change sound cards anyway, and between what I had heard on my end here, and what has been discussed here, I will buy a Santa Cruz.

Do you get any hum when recording?

Since I am a not-too-distant neighbor I would love to get together and check out how you do it start to finish- I'd bring the liquid refreshment or beverage of choice.

Thanks,
Chris

[Chris Desjardin]

I transfer vinyl in a different room to a cd-recorder. Then I bring the disc down to my computer, copy it to my hard drive, and start working on it. I have had no hum problems with the Santa Cruz (but now I will give it a real good listen to make sure it isn't there). The Santa Cruz came with the Dell computer I bought last year. I have been happy with it.

As far as working on tracks from a CD source, I have done this as well in cool edit, and have never heard a hum from that, either.

I would be happy to show you how I do this start to finish. I live in Ware - about 50 mins west of Worcester. Email me at cdesjardins@attbi.com and we can work things out.

I noticed there are a lot or members from MA on the forum.

[Todd Fredericks]

Yes, Grant is absolutely correct about the 32 bit FLOAT. I made a biggie mistake in my explanation. I haven't used Cool Edit Pro in a while and I was going on "tired" memory. Thanks for the correction...

TF

[MagicAlex]

I dont see anything that specifically says 32-bit 'float' in my conversion dialogue box. It does say 'convert to 32-bit'. Is this one and the same or is '32-bit float' something different?

Also, I have used noise filters to get rid of pops and clicks and only damaged the wave. Will working in 32-bit eliminate the damage?

[Grant]

Well, Magic,

Just use the option that says 32. There is only one. What you do is, after converting the file to 32-bit, to use the "Save As" in the File menu, clicking Options, then choose 32-bit (16.8) float if you only plan on working in Cool Edit. If you plan on using another program in addition to Cool Edit like Sound Forge 5.0, select 32-bit 0.24 normalized (type 3). This is the IEEE 32-bit. Cool Edit uses both.

Just remember that you should do EVERYTHING in 32-bit and the dither back to 16-bit JUST before burning to CD-R.

If you work at the 48k sampling rate or higher, you must downsample to 44.1 BEFORE you convert the bit depth.

You will not damage your sound when working in 32- bit FLOAT. Your de-clicking problem is another matter entierly. You are overdoing the declicking. I admit, de-clicking in Cool Edit is very hard to do. You can't just pick a preset and go. What I usually do is select an area of the file to be de-clicked, pick a preset that closely matches the sound of the part of the file you are working on, hit the "Find all levels" button, enter the detect and repair values to be higher than what is probably there, going as high as 25 or even 30 on the repair.

Having a quiet card will aid in easier cleanup because there will be a clearer distinction as to what is sound and what it card induced noise. A 24-bit card will offer better low-level resolution but I have found that for vinyl restoration, where undertones don't usually exceed 30db is just fine.

That Santa Cruz card has 18-bit converters which means a more accurate 16-bit sound. Still better than a Soundblaster card, hands down.

I suggest that if one is hell-bent on processing all in 16-bit to at least make sure that "Dither all Transforms" in the Options is checked. Then, just after recording at 16-bit, goose the treble just a bit to compensate for the slight veil you will get as a result. I like to use the Sound Forge "Smoothe/Enchance" plug-in set at "1" for this. This works for me because I rarely EQ anything.

[MagicAlex]

Grant...thanks for the info. A few more questions though, I am quite new to this.

Does conversion from 44K to 48K and then back to 44K do anything to help your editing? I understand why the bit conversion is handy but I can't see any benifit to converting the sample rate.

And, as far as using the dither options, which are best? Are they neccessary at all?

[Grant]

Originally posted by MagicAlex
Grant...thanks for the info. A few more questions though, I am quite new to this.

Does conversion from 44K to 48K and then back to 44K do anything to help your editing? I understand why the bit conversion is handy but I can't see any benifit to converting the sample rate.
[QUOTE]

There is NO benifit. In fact, downsampling does more damage to the sound than bit reduction.
[QUOTE]

And, as far as using the dither options, which are best? Are they neccessary at all?
You MUST use dither! If you don't you will have nasty low level graininess that is very audiable, as digital doesn't do well at low frequencies. Dither leaves an analog hiss that will veil the sound. You can leave things this way, or you can use noise shaping to move that noise around so it doesn't affect the music so much. You'll have to experiment. I like the C2 curve with a dither depth of 1, though you can play around with lower dither depths if you use noise shaping. It's all trial and error. There isn't much information anywhere on how to use dither.

Again, this is a lot like how analog is. Digital is not some evil monster, just another way to process sound. It is natural because it's all electricity. Just electrical switching of 1's and 0's, and mathmatical calculations converted into electricity, then into vibrations. When you think about it, analog is the same thing, except instead of switching, it uses mechanical; vibrations or magnets.

[MagicAlex]

Grant & Todd, thanks for your input. Is there anything else important that you might add?

[reidc]

Yes- I must also pipe in with a big thank you! I now I don't pipe in on every thread here- and as much as I thought I was a real big audio fan- I realize there are folks here that know a helluva lot more than I - I sit back and take a lot of it in and it becomes a huge learning experience.

Thanks to all for the exchange. I sincerely appreciate it all.


Chris