What do ya think?

[Andy]

http://www.stereophile.com/soapbox.shtml


Any thoughts?

[Pinknik]

I would only counter by saying that I've yet to hear high end sound equipment set up in a store that sounded as good as my system at home, whether it was my Onkyo receiver with Cerwin Vega speakers (probably closer to her $900 system) or my current VPI/Rotel/Sound Dynamics system. My current system, does, however, sound better than my old. As a side note, I'd probably guess that Skywalker Ranch would have excellent theatre sound, not necessarily realistic sound. It'd be interesting to have ears that tested that well though. I'm not sure how mine would compare, haven't had them tested since grade school if I recall correctly.

[Dave]

Well Andy, I'd would first off have to say that this musician woman has zero high-end equipment experience, either buying or listening.

She seems to be under the assumption that because she's a trained musician, like myself, she automatically knows everything about audio, which simply isn't the reality. I know from years of audiophile listening, that I hear and learn things all the time and it is a constant learning experience and not something that someone immediately knows about. I'm sure even Steve himself learns things now and again.

What does she know about mastering? Not a darn thing! "I usually take my Eurythmics cd's for listening". Can anyone name a decent cd recording of any of their albums, because I sure can't. They're all too bright for my taste and overly compressed.

Personally I believe that she's trying to sound like some kind of sound authority and doesn't realize how ridiculous she looks to a really well seasoned audiophile.;)

[Evan]

She needs serious help. Probably thinks Nonoise and digital compression are good things and wonders why anyone would use out-dated technology like vinyl records or vacuum tubes :rolleyes:

I can hear her now "Ugh, tape hiss bad. Digital silence good" :eek:

[Dave]

Now Evan, be nice.

We all had to take our learning to listen properly, seriously and not think that we knew enough about it before any true hearing improvement started to develop, remember?;)

Maybe some should invite her to show up here and learn? Then she would see that there's alot to this.

[Michael]

Yes Dave! Send her an invite. I'm sure she will learn from this great place.
Great Idea!

[NoTinEar]

What I find most disturbing about the post is the complete lack of qualifying statements or facts. They simply don’t exist anywhere in the post. The poster makes so many absolute statements, such as her system “sounds better than many systems that cost 10 times as much, I have yet to hear a sound system at any price, anywhere, that sounded remotely like a live orchestra, etc” Yet in all those absolute statements, no qualifying facts or statements. For example, she doesn’t state exactly what equipment she has, she doesn’t state what equipment she listened too, she doesn’t state what other recordings she used as her “demo material”, she doesn’t state the price range of the equipment she looked at, and on and on and on. If your someone who has any background with audio equipment, for you to take the post as a serious post, you would be looking for those kind qualifying statements or facts. You can’t expect to post on a site like Stereophile, and I am not opening the can of worms about how serious an audiophile publication of knowledge Stereophile is, and to be taken seriously without qualifying all these absolute statements. To me that behavior seems more in line with what a “troll” would do in a newsgroup, not what a legitimate consumer trying to expand someone’s knowledge would do.

Now this statement in particular, if we take the post as something factual, and again I would tend to believe the post to be more in the "trolling" vein, states the logic and mentality in relation to what this person is expecting to hear when they were going to listen to that new equipment. “Frankly, my $900 Technics system (I mean $900 for the whole shebang, and it's no spring chicken) sounds as close to a real orchestra (after I've fiddled with equalizers and speaker placement, etc) as any high-end system I've auditioned,” The part that said everything to me, is the part about the equalizers. There are some major problems with the absolute statement of the speaker placement, but that isn’t the major thing in that sentence. Neither of those statements have any qualifying comments included, like how the eq is set, is it being set differently for different cds, does she use different eq for radio, does she use different eq for different speaker placement, how the placement of the speakers in relation to where she sits, layout of room, etc. So with that in mind, that we don’t have any idea of how the eq is being used, other then its being used to make the system sound like she wants it to, how are we going to know what this sound that she ends up with is? Now what is this magic sound she gets with the eq that makes her $900 system sound better then systems that cost 10X as much? I have no idea sense there aren’t any qualifying statements in relation to the eq issue and for that matter either do you. Is it a sound she hears in sitting in the third row of Carnegie hall with a coughing person in front of her and the air conditioning on high so that sound leaks into the area, is it the sound she hears playing her Bosendofer eight foot grand with the top down on a warm day after it hasn’t been tuned for two months, perhaps the sound of her freshly restrung Fender GA-43S that isn’t quite yet in tune yet after you have had several beers and are playing with your week hand, etc? Your guess is as good as mine, and your extreme example can be used to fill in the blank of my etc., the point is again we have no idea what that magic sound is. What we do know and what general statement can be determined is that if an equalizer is being used with a system of this price point then the sound is going to be very colored in some fashion. I am not saying that the sound quality in a system at this price range couldn’t be made more neutral or to your personal liking with an eq, because it probably could be at this price point. What I am saying is, that at this price point, the sound is probably already colored by the system to a large degree, and your adding a significant amount of further coloring of the sound with the eq. Without giving any qualifying statements about all that, you just cant expect to be taken seriously.

Finally, if her receiver was going bad, and she was satisfied with the receivers sound and capabilities, eminently evidently from her post, why wouldn’t she just replace it with a similar brand receiver with similar power and price point? Why would she be interested in “trying to research what the current prejudices are among those who care more about this stuff than I do.” Didn’t she just get through explaining with extreme prejudice no less, why she doesn’t think any system that she had “auditioned”, sounded better then her $900 system? If you follow that logic, why would anything that the audiophiles have to say about their “prejudices” about certain audio equipment matter to her at all? I just can’t see how they would. This just further reinforces my idea of this post being the work of someone "trolling".

I have been to Skywalker for training and that said a great sounding theater does not neccessarily make for great sounding musical reproduction. Though that is all moot, because again, she doesn’t state what theater in Skywalker she listened too, what material she listened too, etc. etc. Get the picture yet?

At any rate your mileage may vary, but if that’s the case just tweak the eq so it doesn’t.

[Evan]

But I was being nice! :rolleyes:

I have a demo disc I made of Steve's work that I use to test stereo systems and impress friends. I could send her a copy to audition new systems with :D

[Richard Feirstein]

But she has a point: there is not always a direct relationship between price and sound quality. There is not always a guarantee that a highly regarded brand name will always sound better than a mass produced vender's product. The name of the game for the typical consumer is to get the best sound for the least amount of money. The right speakers in the right location for the user and the room is the starting place. 5.1 considerations have changed everything and it is so complex that I no longer have a reference point to start recommendations.

[Grant]

If your system is up to the task, the reproduction will only be as good as the source.

Some audiophiles' goal is to have that live sound in their room. As an audiophile, MY goal is to get as accurate a playback of whatever is on the media. If the recording on the media sounds a certain way, I want the system to play it back that way with no or as little distortion as possible. The quality of the recording should be left to the mastering engineer and the media, not the equipment.

With most consumer gear it is unreasonable to expect, and is virtually impossible for it's sound to transport one into a music hall.

One thing the woman forgot was that musicians have one perspective of live music because they are part of the performance. The audience has a different perspective, so her knowledge of live music is different than a listener out in row H.

A side thought:

Many people simply listen to music on a different level. They don't hear or comprehend what more technically-minded audiophiles hear. Many people have the ability to cut through any kind of bad sound and get to the musical performance. I guess the audiophile or the sound engineer's curse is that we cannot or don't know how to ignore the sound quality. It's like how some can mentally ignore vinyl noise and I can't.

[Sckott]

Women are much more sensitive about sound than men are. It's a proven fact. Most have such a broad sense of hearing, it's actually amazing. Test your significant other out!

[Scott Wheeler]

I can smell the sour grapes in this one. She can't afford a high end system so they don't sound any better. She is an expert so she says.

[Gary]

Someone should get her to buy the Eagles GH on DCC, the original and the remaster. That should do it.

[Tullman]

I built my system one piece at a time. I have been fortunate to have dealers in the Boston area that allow in home auditions. They let you borrow a piece of equipment over the weekend. If this woman would have taken home a nice set of speakers that would be compatible with her amplification, and hooked them up through her system, I'm sure she would have heard the difference when comparing them to her nasty techniques.

Just because one system costs ten times as much as another, does not mean it will sound ten times better. Sometimes it will cost thousands just to get to the next level. There are diminishing returns with the more expensive equipment.

Being able to compare equipment at home in a system and enviroment, that one is familiar, is much more revealing than getting the bum's rush in some demo room.

[Dave B]

In my many years as a married man (2 wives, 23 years). I have found that, while they may posess excellent hearing, most woman do not hear a significant difference from one piece of audio equipment to another. Now before I get bombarded with hate mail from the few woman on this forum, I'd like to qualify that statement. It seems that when asked to really sit down and concentrate on the quality of sound reproduction, both my past and present wife have been able to agree that there is a difference between a $900 Pioneer system and a $40,000 high-end system but almost immediately would qualify it with, "But I don't think it's worth the money". I think that for many people both male and female, good enough is good enough. To these folks, the idea of spending huge sums of money for the incremental increases in improved sound reproduction is both pointless and wasteful. Very similar to the more horsepower argument "Why do you need 300 HP when you drive around town at 30 miles an hour most of the time?"

I almost got the feeling that this article was a teaser to enrage the troops and stir up some reader input. I find it very hard to believe that a classically trained musician would not hear the improvement in fidelity between her Pioneer speakers and almost any high-end pair. I do find that most woman prefer to listen at much lower volume levels than men and it's possible that at these levels there is less decernable difference between components. You're not driving the amp anywhere close to distortion and even the crappiest speakers sound tolerable at low levels. Of course they have no bass but speaking from my personal experience, I seldom get a request to "Pump Up The Jams" from my significant other.

I guess I wouldn't worry too much about Erin, if she is satisfied with her Pioneer components, that's fine. I don't believe she is saying there is no difference between it and the Mac/Tannoy system just that she sees no reason to spend the money. Quite honestly, if I didn't hear the difference in components and CD's or records, I wouldn't spend the money either.

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by Dave B
In my many years as a married man (2 wifes, 23 years). I have found that, while they may posess excellent hearing, most woman do not hear a significant difference from one piece of audio equipment to another. Now before I get bombarded with hate mail from the few woman on this forum, I'd like to qualify that statement. It seems that when asked to really sit down and concentrate on the quality of sound reproduction, both my past and present wife have been able to agree that there is a difference between a $900 Pioneer system and a $40,000 high-end system but almost immediately would qualify it with, "But I don't think it's worth the money". I think that for many people both male and female, good enough is good enough. To these folks, the idea of spending huge sums of money for the incremental increases in improved sound reproduction is both pointless and wasteful. Very similar to the more horsepower argument "Why do you need 300 HP when you drive around town at 30 miles an hour most of the time?"

I almost got the feeling that this article was a teaser to enrage the troops and stir up some reader input. I find it very hard to believe that a classically trained musician would not hear the improvement in fidelity between her Pioneer speakers and almost any high-end pair. I do find that most woman prefer to listen at much lower volume levels than men and it's possible that at these levels there is less decernable difference between components. You're not driving the amp anywhere close to distortion and even the crappiest speakers sound tolerable at low levels. Of course they have no bass but speaking from my personal experience, I seldom get a request to "Pump Up The Jams" from my significant other.

I guess I wouldn't worry too much about Erin, if she is satisfied with her Pioneer components, that's fine. I don't believe she is saying there is no difference between it and the Mac/Tannoy system just that she sees no reason to spend the money. Quite honestly, if I didn't hear the difference in components and CD's or records, I wouldn't spend the money either.

Dave,

Great observations. From my experience, I sincerely agree with you. For women, it MAY come down to intrinsic value. Does the added sound quality justify the bigger expense. Women can be horribly and wonderfully practical beings. My girlfriend loves the sound of my big system, especially my reel deck but, she would never think of spending that kind of money on sound reproduction. At least, in her case, quality of her clothing, holds more intrinsic value...the diffenence between Wal-Mart, Target and DKNY or Cache'...now that is a frequent topic of dicussion with her. She does really enjoy a number of the DCC gold discs but would never pay the extra money required to purchase them. Perhaps, it simply comes down to personal preferences and the importance of those preferences in her life!

Bob

[Tullman]

My woman is enlightened. She hears the difference right away. I use her for A/B comparisons all of the time. She loves to turn music she likes up loud. She would not spend crazy money on a system or recordings, like I do, but she does appreciate fine sounding recordings like DCC's Elvis 24 Karat gold hits. She loves music and can appreciate it through a crappy $60.00 boom box. I cannot and will not listen to music through that awful boombox. I cannot even listen to music on my crappy car stereo, but my daughter seems quite content with that radio. I suppose if I had nothing better I would be grooving on the car radio. However, I know when I get home I have a monster stereo waiting for me.

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by Tullman
My woman is enlightened. She hears the difference right away. I use her for A/B comparisons all of the time. She loves to turn music she likes up loud. She would not spend crazy money on a system or recordings, like I do, but she does appreciate fine sounding recordings like DCC's Elvis 24 Karat gold hits. She loves music and can appreciate it through a crappy $60.00 boom box. I cannot and will not listen to music through that awful boombox. I cannot even listen to music on my crappy car stereo, but my daughter seems quite content with that radio. I suppose if I had nothing better I would be grooving on the car radio. However, I know when I get home I have a monster stereo waiting for me.

Tullman,

My girlfriend loves the DCC Elvis' 24K Hits as well. She says it better captures the "sex and sizzle" in his voice....very interesting! I have to play either it or Elvis Is Back everytime we are together....

Bob :)

[GabeG]

Hmmm. My first reaction is I think we are being way too hard on her.

Read it carefully - the high end WAS NOT being bashed.

She was just stating her point of view and in that she felt her cheap system was as good as anything else she's heard in sounding like an orchestra. She also NEVER made the claim that she knew much about audio.

First of all she is right -- no system, no matter how much it cost or how great can match the sound of live music, especially a full orchestra. As of today, it can not be done. No SACD, DVD-A, record or Steve Hoffman has been able to pull that feat off. Hopefully someday soon, but for now the pursuit of the (ahem) "absolute sound" is just that - a pursuit.

While we can say that she plays in an orchestra and her sonic perspective is skewed, yada yada yada, I'm sure she has also listened to live music in the audience. I mean really, do you think she doesn't go listen to other concerts and hear other people play?

The truth is as a concert goer (both rock/jazz and classical), I have never heard anything live that a system has been able to fully reproduce. Maybe sometimes something will sound real, but never everything (or just many things) all (or most) of the time. If you step back and think about what we pay for equipment and how close it gets us to the real thing it IS pretty ridiculous.

I've also been with audiophiles who claim not to like the sound of live (unamplified)as much as their stereo.

I wouldn't want to downgrade my system to hers, but I'm sure it does sound better than some more expensive systems. Notice I said some, not all. I've heard cheaper systems sound great and expensive systems sound bad. Go to the Stereophile show and see for yourself. You'll hear the whole range of good to bad and the price won't always match the sound. And none of them will fully sound like the real thing.




- Gabe

[Tullman]

Bob, my woman is spanish so I end up playing Marc Anthony and Julio Iglesias. I have also steered her towards Buena Vista Social Club and Los Lobos.


Gabe, the woman this thread is about is simply uniformed, otherwise she would not make such ridiculus statements.

[Andy]

Since I started this thread last night I’ve captured about 35 people to read this woman’s story. I think people are now trying to find a different way to get to the other side of the building.:D So far all but two have agreed with her.

[GabeG]

Andy, do you mean 35 people other than us Hoffmanites?

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by GabeG
Andy, do you mean 35 people other than us Hoffmanites?

All,

Hoffmanites--able to smell overprocessing after three seconds of listening, able to recognize tube re-mastering after three notes, true affectionados of tape hiss, able to recognize the difference between a Fairchild Compressor/Limiter and digital compression after a short listening, able to recognize "limiter splatter" even on boombox placed near the shower!

It sure is fun!

Bob ;)

[Andy]

Mostly it was just people that were walking by in the hall. My neighbor I woke up and sent him the link, my boss I had read it first thing this morning. Those two are the only two people I know that might be called audiophiles; they disagreed with her.

[GabeG]

I'm surprised that only a few people reacted negatively to her comments on Stereophile's website.