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Chanty Stovall
03-26-2004, 04:56 PM
Yayy! Here we go again. I've looked at as many threads as I could for this, but there still seems to be some information lacking. I have quite a few of these CBS Mastersound lps, and also have nice original copies of some of these to compare them to. From what I have gathered, most everybody on this forum agrees these sound wrong, admittances of bad engineering and everything. What I would like to know, when CBS finally did come to terms with themselves and corrected their process, what were the results, or is this just a rumor? Which titles, if any, did they improve upon? Here's my evaluation over some of these titles:
Bruce Springsteen - Born to Run 1/2 speed vs. U.S. White Label Promo. Both of these have that murky sound; especially on Backstreets, but the lyrics are all about murkiness in the city, so to speak, so it feels right. The 1/2 speed does have a cleaner bottom to it. "She's the One" sounds cleaner on the 1/2 speed, but is punchier on the promo.
The Boss - Darkness 1/2 speed vs. U.S. White Label Promo. The 1/2 speed of this is too good: the vocals are clear, every instrument sounds like it was just bought and paid for at the local music shop. The WLP is a better listen. The instruments do not sustain for as long as the 1/2 speed issue, but the lack of sustaining sounds more natural. This is supposed to be Rock N Roll and not Record and Remix after all.
Billy Joel: The Stranger 1/2 speed vs. WLP. This is the one, I think, that sports the biggest differences. 'She's Always a Woman to Me' never sounded better than on the 1/2 speed. The 1/2 speed cut of 'Only the Good Die Young' is the worst I've heard; the mid is totally gone, and that is 80% of the charm of that song - that bass zipping up and down with the acoustic guitar - Man oh Man, it's gone! On the other hand, you get all the dynamics for this song on the U.S. white promo copy - go with this over a regular domestic.
Billy Joel: 52nd St - A stretch of a mile of improvement over the Stranger for the 1/2 speed. Actually, it doesn't sound too bad at all if you turn the treble dial down a notch. Yet, the opening guitars on 'Big Shot' of the U.S. WLP copy capture my initial attention more than the 1/2 speed opener. This one is almost a toss-up.
Billy Joel: Innocent Man - A good domestic copy will almost give you the same sound, but go with the 1/2 speed for two reasons: The vinyl is very quiet, and the dynamics of 'For the Longest Time' are so humane, I think it was recorded in my bathroom.
Bob Dylan - Nashville Skyline - Surprise, surprise, the Quad is the one to get, but only if you have the equipment to support it, otherwise you may have to buy thicker curtains to cut down on the echo. As a bonus, this is the only lp version I know of with an extended jam at the end of the song 'Country Pie'.
Bob Dylan - Blood on the Tracks: This, along with Pink Floyd's Wish You were Here, are my favorites in the series. I always feel like it is raining outside when I listen to this in any format, sunny days and nights. The WLP copy I have is very good too. For all the acousticness in this recording, I have to say that the 1/2 speed brings out some of the picking and fingering a little better than the WLP copy.
Elvis Costello - Imperial Bedroom: Another good one for the Mastersound series. The domestic copy I had was great. The 1/2 speed seems to bring out some of the nuances in the orchestra numbers. This may sound funny, but I felt like I was part of a parade when I heard the 1/2 speed version. Sans ditto for the regular domestic pressing.
Willie Nelson - Stardust: The 1/2 speed is easy to listen to - everything sounds really sparkley, like somebody is blowing pixie dust in my living room. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, since I believe music should also challenge the listener's ear. This may be one of the best albums to sit back and do nothing to, it may even put you to sleep. Sorry, no domestic copy to compare it to.
Willie Nelson - Red Headed Stranger: A curiosity in that they issued this one in the CBS Mastersound catalog. I do not own a copy of the 1/2 speed because I have a hard time imagining what they could do to make a raw guitar and voice sound better. Maybe somebody else could shed some light on this.
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here: The keyboards on the 1/2 speed are the lushest I've heard. If this was not the intention of the band, than this could be the only thing wrong with this pressing. I had a U.S. promo copy of this that was very dull in comparison. I do have the Austrailian Quad version, and it has the best dynamics on the second half of 'Shine on You Crazy Diamond'.
Pink Floyd - The Wall: Find a U.S. promo copy and sell your 1/2 speed on eBay for 150.00.
I know what went wrong with this one, I just don't see how it could be this wrong. Oh well. Anybody know about the UK version of this?
Michael Jackson - Off the Wall: Well, the 1/2 speed brings out the funky keyboards better than the U.S. WLP, though it is a good idea to notch the treble a bit. On my system, I could hear the bass of this lp while taking a bath in the next room for the 1/2 speed. Haven't tried that yet with my WLP copy.
Michael Jackson - Thriller: Almost the same experience as Off the Wall, with the exception of the bathtub. The guitars in 'Wanna be Starting Something' on the 1/2 speed pressing really do come out more than the promo domestic copy. All n all, for both of the M. Jackson lps, I've had more of a reaction on the dance floor in my apartment from the 1/2 speeds over the promos.
Geeze, I know I have more but I am away from my collection and am anxious to hear from everyone. What are your good, bad, ugly lists? I'd like to submit one, but I'm afraid most everything would fit in a category between good and bad. Some of the good ones are not that great and some of the bad ones are not that bad.
Here are the two best on my playback system: Bob Dylan- Blood on the Tracks, Pink Floyd- Wish you Were Here.
Here are the two worst: Billy Joel - The Stranger (at least the first run of pressings. This was re-issued as a second pressing a few years later. Has anybody done a comparison on these two?)
Pink Floyd - The Wall - A 'not-so-Wall-of-Sound' recording in a soft taco shell.
I don't know if I can classify the Boss's Born to Run as the worst because it pretty much sounds nearly the same from each pressing I've heard.
Thanks for reading and re-reading,
Chanty :cool:

MikeT
03-26-2004, 05:11 PM
I have the Elvis Costello "Imperial Bedroom" and feel it is very, very good.

I also have Santana "Abraxas", which to my ears sounds fantastic (in ways better than the SACD or the MOFI).

I also have Santana "Zebop", good but not great.

Just a note, Chanty, you really need to put some spaces in your posts, especially if you place a long giant post like you did. It was very hard to read.

peter
03-26-2004, 05:15 PM
I'd love an opinion on the Blood, Sweat & Tears "Child Is Father to the Man" CBS Half-Speed LP.

I have an original UK dark orange label heavy vinyl CBS A-1 matrix of this that DESTROYS my original 1-C two-eye US Columbia press. Flipback cover on the UK one too.

I need to know comps. on the half-speed. I have never even seen one.

Same question for the Layla, although that's a SuperDisc press, right?

Pug
03-26-2004, 05:16 PM
How is the Band on the Run half-speed LP? I found a copy and was wondering if I should pick it up, or is there better sounding vinyl out there?

Sean

kwadguy
03-26-2004, 05:22 PM
Don't forget Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds came out as a half speed. Also, ELO's Time.

Anyone care to comment on the best sounding version of War of the Worlds, both on vinyl and on CD?

There were also some Streisand CBS half speeds, some Neil Diamond half speeds, Billy Joel's Songs from the Attic, Boston's two CBS albums, some Chicago albums...

Kwad

Adam9
03-26-2004, 05:22 PM
How is the Band on the Run half-speed LP? I found a copy and was wondering if I should pick it up, or is there better sounding vinyl out there?

Sean

I just recently picked one up and it sounds pretty good to me (comparing it to the single CD bonus tracks reissue and to a somewhat beat-up Capitol LP).

PsychFan
03-26-2004, 05:25 PM
I'd love an opinion on the Blood, Sweat & Tears "Child Is Father to the Man" CBS Half-Speed LP.

I got this for $4 in NM condition ... it was unpriced in the shop and the clerk clearly didn't know what it was really worth.

I also have an early 2-eye Columbia (I forget the exact matrix numbers), but I've not compared them, at least not in a long while. I should do so and report back ...

peter
03-26-2004, 05:47 PM
I got this for $4 in NM condition ... it was unpriced in the shop and the clerk clearly didn't know what it was really worth.

I also have an early 2-eye Columbia (I forget the exact matrix numbers), but I've not compared them, at least not in a long while. I should do so and report back ...

Indeed. Please do so!

wildchild
03-26-2004, 05:56 PM
Child is father to the man is by far the worst CBS 1/2 speed these ear's have ever heard.Listened to it at a dealer's house on an extremely good system and couldnt believe our ear's (sounded like a poorly recorded cassette). As for Abraxas ,yes good but no match for the SACD. The one Santana record that sound's fantastic as a 1/2 speed is Zebop. Very hit and miss these guy's. Cheer's Todd

Loud Listener
03-26-2004, 06:08 PM
How is the Band on the Run half-speed LP? I found a copy and was wondering if I should pick it up, or is there better sounding vinyl out there?

Sean

I think the acoustic tunes 'Bluebird' and 'Mamunia' really sound nice and crisp on this LP. The rest of it is good. Nowhere near as lush as the DCC CD though, kind of harsh on some songs.

JoelDF
03-26-2004, 06:12 PM
Heart's Little Queen. Actaully sounds a little smoother than the regular LP. Almost the exact tonal quality as the CD several years later. Big problem is that the channels were reversed. I don't know if they ever corrected that, or even bothered.

PsychFan
03-26-2004, 06:16 PM
Indeed. Please do so!

Just came back from the listening room.

My Columbia 2-eye Child is Father... is a 1A/1G pressing. I chose to compare the song "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know" from Side 1 (the "1A" side of the 2-eye) with the CBS Half-Speed version (which, by the way, has a "2A" stamp on Side 1).

FWIW ... To my ears, the 1A 2-eye is better. The bass guitar is deep and rich, just as you'd hear from a real bass amp, whereas on the Half-Speed it's barely even there. The 2-eye was also more dynamic and less bright, and more natural overall. The organ sounded more like a real organ on the 2-eye.

The horns and, in spots, the lead vocal were a bit shrill on both copies, more so on the Half-Speed. (Oddly, the lead vocal seemed to be pushed toward the left channel on the Half-Speed, whereas on the 2-eye it seemed more centrally located.)

MikeyH
03-26-2004, 08:19 PM
There has been some comment that these mastersounds are 'wrong'. i.e. badly mastered or incorrectly engineered .. I can only trace that back to some tests that were made, maybe with incorrect (non-half-speed-corrected) RIAA. I don't find most of these that different to the standard pressings, though some are stand-out. The Wish You Were Here is at least pressed on quiet vinyl.. doesn't sound great,though. The Friday Night in San Francisco has a very different perspective to the mastering, and sounds more distant (concert hall versus small club). Very nice, overall. I don't keep these for listening to.

James Glennon
03-27-2004, 02:12 AM
The original album sounded woeful and the 1/2 speed doesn't even deserve a comment.
JG

Joel1963
03-27-2004, 04:48 AM
My Born to Run half-speed sounded marginally better than the mass market copy. My Earth Wind and Fire GH LP sounded quite a bit more detailed.

ChristianL
03-27-2004, 05:02 AM
The original album sounded woeful and the 1/2 speed doesn't even deserve a comment.
JG
I bought this one about twenty years ago. IIRC there has been much less treble (and much more surface-noise) than on my pressing made in the Netherlands.

Randy W
03-27-2004, 06:00 AM
Chanty, I have many of the same CBS 1/2 speeds and domestics. I think in general, I would agree with you. IMO the Canadian CBS 1/2 speed of Born to Run is better than the US CBS 1/2 speed, and I prefer the US LP of Blood on the Tracks over the CBS 1/2 speed. Also, the UK LP of the Wall is significantly better than the CBS 1/2 speed, and if you like the Willie Nelson Stardust 1/2 speed, you will love a US WLP.

Peter, the Layla was a Direct Disk Labs Super Disk LP - I sold mine long ago - it was pretty muddy. The UK LP is much better, as are the Japanese, US, etc.

Gardo
03-27-2004, 06:25 AM
My Born to Run half-speed sounded marginally better than the mass market copy. My Earth Wind and Fire GH LP sounded quite a bit more detailed.

I've got the Born to Run 1/2 speed and I think it sounds pretty good, given the murky source recording--better than the mass market LP and better than the standard CD.

And hey Chanty, thanks a lot for that detailed and funny post. :edthumbs: Welcome to the Forum!

-=Rudy=-
03-27-2004, 06:30 AM
I ditched all of mine--they sounded horrid and I rarely played them. I found them unpleasant to listen to, and from comparative LPs and CDs, it was very evident that these discs were just...wrong. Here's the article I've quoted in the past (emphasis added):

CBS sent me a catalog and invited me to pick a baker's dozen of titles that I would like to do on vinyl. So I picked lots of neat stuff like Abraxas, Joni Mitchell, Ten Years After, Earth Wind and Fire and so on, and ordered the records for tech review. I sent the list of my choices back and they sent me records but I never heard from them again. Several months later I was cruising a record store and I see this glitzy rack with the 13 titles I had picked. It said, "CBS Master Sound - Audiophile Pressing - Half Speed Mastered." Boy, was I pissed. I bought one of each and went back to the lab. After I cooled down I called Gary to see if he could do some listening with me.

Thirty seconds after dropping the needle on the first disc we stopped and looked at each other in horror. Then we tried another of the CBS discs. We stopped that one, looked at each other, and laughed till we had tears in our eyes and cramps in our sides. CBS tried to do an end run on us by having us do the A&R work. The problem was that they, apparently, cut the discs at half speed but didn't adjust their EQ or Dolby systems down an octave. They just cut it at half speed with their real time mastering notes for processing. Man, it sounded like watermelon seeds shooting out the speakers. Those poor guys looked real bad after that and we looked real good. They never did get it right and eventually stopped trying.

Source: http://www.aurealm.com/violet.htm

It's funny that it took me over 20 years to finally find out why these sounded so bad. I rarely played mine! Of all the ones I sold, on eBay, I didn't get more than $8 for any of them. Don't know about watermelon seeds, but the high end had a steely/edgy/peaky sound to it (may have been a big peak around 4kHz?), the mids were a bit dished out (or may have seemed that way due to the highs), and the bass wasn't as clear as I'd hoped it would be (muddy, not "tight" like the originals). It wasn't just the one I owned, it was all of them, which had the same problems. This wasn't a subtle difference either--it could easily be heard. (If I could hear it, anyone could! ;) )

Gardo
03-27-2004, 09:09 AM
I ditched all of mine--they sounded horrid and I rarely played them. I found them unpleasant to listen to, and from comparative LPs and CDs, it was very evident that these discs were just...wrong. Here's the article I've quoted in the past (emphasis added):



Source: http://www.aurealm.com/violet.htm

It's funny that it took me over 20 years to finally find out why these sounded so bad. I rarely played mine! Of all the ones I sold, on eBay, I didn't get more than $8 for any of them. Don't know about watermelon seeds, but the high end had a steely/edgy/peaky sound to it (may have been a big peak around 4kHz?), the mids were a bit dished out (or may have seemed that way due to the highs), and the bass wasn't as clear as I'd hoped it would be (muddy, not "tight" like the originals). It wasn't just the one I owned, it was all of them, which had the same problems. This wasn't a subtle difference either--it could easily be heard. (If I could hear it, anyone could! ;) )

Interesting. I didn't hear watermelon seeds, dished mids, steely highs, or particularly muddy bass on Born to Run--did you own/hear that one? I'm not saying it was a revelation, mind you, but I don't think it suffered from the mastering goof the article describes.

peter
03-27-2004, 09:47 AM
Thanks to all. All my questions have been answered.

Chanty Stovall
03-27-2004, 04:22 PM
Thanks to all. All my questions have been answered.

Yes, Thanks! This has been a good discussion. I will do my best to use more spaces in my future posts as well for easier reading.

Chanty :cool:

kwadguy
03-27-2004, 05:42 PM
I ditched all of mine--they sounded horrid and I rarely played them. I found them unpleasant to listen to, and from comparative LPs and CDs, it was very evident that these discs were just...wrong. Here's the article I've quoted in the past (emphasis added):



Source: http://www.aurealm.com/violet.htm



Thanks for that link. That's a GREAT insider article on MFSL. Please let us know if there are any more comparable articles out there. Just terrific!

Kwad

stever
03-27-2004, 08:05 PM
Anyone ever hear the Rosanne Cash, "Seven Year Ache," CBS half-speed?

AudiophilePhil
03-27-2004, 08:40 PM
Anyone ever hear the Rosanne Cash, "Seven Year Ache," CBS half-speed?

or the Chicago IX -Greatest Hits Half-speed mastered rec.?
Please share your experience before I spend $99.00 for a sealed copy.