Are the Japanese losing their edge (re. remasters)?

[SVL]

Got the Japanese remasters of all Rainbow albums recently (mini LP sleeve editions). Turned out that instead of doing a new remastering job Universal/Japan used the Suha Gur remasters that were previously available in Europe and the US. It was only logical that I could not hear much difference sound-wise... though there is some.

Same with Toshiba/EMI mini-LP reissues of Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull.

Somewhat of a disappointment, really.

To their credit, the Japanese are still doing their own remasters of old jazz albums.

[Sckott]

Think of it as a novelty cone from the ice cream man. It's not like Hagen-Das or Ben & Jerry's, but they're cool, and the experience brings you "back".

But to their credit, a lot of Japanese reissues have amazed Jazzwize, yes.

[Gary]

It appears to me that - speaking of sonics only - Japanese CDs are 'hit and miss' where a 'miss' is equal in quality to a domestic release and a 'hit' sounds a tad better than a domestic release.

I *think* it depends on where it was manufactured. The CDs that I have from Toshiba / EMI sound exactly like domestic releases. Some (and only some) releases from East/West Japan sound a bit better than a domestic.

There are other manufacturers in Japan but I don't have anything from them.

Packaging - well - I think those papersleeves are amazing! I love McCartney's Venus and Mars with minatures of all the inserts. Eye candy but not ear candy, I'm afraid.

[efhjr]

Originally posted by SVL
Got the Japanese remasters of all Rainbow albums recently (mini LP sleeve editions)...

So far, I've bought two of these. Keep in mind my digital source is far from reference quality, but I do have a very good ear. I appreciate the 24-bit mastering, LP-style sleeves, and care put into these limited reissues and plan on picking up as many as I can (and eBay has been very helpful in this regard, too).

* Mothers of Invention's "Freak Out" -- this is a very enjoyable CD to me. I've never heard the original Verve LP, but heck, when I put in the CD and Zappa is suddenly whispering to me in my listening room, I quit thinking about the vinyl. No tape his, good air around the instruments, almost has that analog richness. I'm amazed at how good something recorded in, what, 1968 can sound on CD. This CD has got much more coming out of it than the Ryko issues, I believe.

* Khan's "Space Shanty" -- warm, creamy goodness, like a perfectly poured Guinness Stout. I do have this on vinyl, and even though the CD is a little bit harsh around the edges, it is still satisfying.

I plan on buying more of them, too. I just picked up the Kinks' "Something Special" mono reissue, and I'm so impressed with the sound of these Japanese CDs so far I'm planning on buying the Dark Side of the Moon issue, too.

[Beagle]

I don't believe the Japanese ever had an edge in anything other than quality control and packaging. Sonically, I thought the bulk of their LP releases were EQ'd, which created a certain sound.

The Japanese pressings were flat, quiet and pressed on-centre. This was very appealing to a lot of people for which noisy, warped, off center pressings were unacceptable. Pressing quality-wise, the Japanese had no peers.

I recall (early 90's) paying $50 for a Japanese import CD of Eric Carmen's "Boats Against The Current", and it was the most flat, lifeless, muffled, dynamically-challenged piece of garbage I had ever heard.

It all hinges on whoever mastered it. But Japanese versions of CD's often have bonus tracks not on any other version, which is appealing to many.

[Drew]

I read before the Japanese Pink Floyd mini-lp's came out that they weren't going to be remastered in any way and thats why I didn't buy them. Mini-lp cases are kinda cool to me but I won't buy a CD for that alone.

[Gary]

I wish I knew that before I bought some. They sound exactly like domestic releases.

Nice to look at, though. But you can't play 'looks', right? (he said sourly).

:rolleyes:

[Paul Chang]

I believe that when Japanese pressings are (re)mastered, the engineers target their domestic market. You may know that most Japanese homes are very small, and many audiophiles in Japan are fanatics in vintage gears - tube electronics, horn speakers, etc. They may have a different taste from people in other countries, due to their room acoustics in particular, and their choices of stereo equipment.

I have to give them credit for the quality of pressings, though. Another thing is that they always keep the best of everything for domestic consumption (there's nothing wrong with that), such as records with higher quality vinyl and deluxe booklet inserts that were not available in the export counterparts. The mini LP sleeve CDs are a good example, quality wise.

[Vivaldinization]

Originally posted by efhjr


* Mothers of Invention's "Freak Out" -- this is a very enjoyable CD to me. I've never heard the original Verve LP, but heck, when I put in the CD and Zappa is suddenly whispering to me in my listening room, I quit thinking about the vinyl. No tape his, good air around the instruments, almost has that analog richness. I'm amazed at how good something recorded in, what, 1968 can sound on CD. This CD has got much more coming out of it than the Ryko issues, I believe.


Err...sorry to burst your bubble, but Freak Out sounds *exactly* like the current Ryko issue (it's the only mini-LP I bought, 'sides Only In It). Not only that, this "analogue"-ness you speak of is the product of an early-80s digital remix, complete with digital reverb and echo.

It's the Who Sell Out syndrome; something that remixing improved beyond all belief.

I'm always surprised that people expect the Japan mini-LP sleeves to be new remasters. The tapes are usually NOT in Japan, causing big problems fro companies there that want to do in-house remastering.

D

[efhjr]

Originally posted by David Goodwin


Err...sorry to burst your bubble...

D

I didn't know that; thanks for the info, David. For some reason, I thought the Japan mini-LP CDs were new 24-bit remasters, but I guess I was wrong. And considering the care put into the packaging, I figured it safe to assume the same care was put into the source of the CD.

But I do enjoy the CD, and I feel like I got my money's worth (I hadn't bought "Freak Out" on CD yet). I got some great music in a great sleeve to look over while I play it. Just like an album .

Your idea of the Who Sell Out syndrome is interesting. Personally, though, I don't think new digital remasters are such a bad thing. Considering how hard and expensive it is to find original Who LPs (Decca monos or whatever) I'm pleased to be able to cheaply and easily buy The Who Sell Out on a well-mastered CD. That's my $.02, anyway.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by efhjr
Your idea of the Who Sell Out syndrome is interesting. Personally, though, I don't think new digital remasters are such a bad thing. Considering how hard and expensive it is to find original Who LPs (Decca monos or whatever) I'm pleased to be able to cheaply and easily buy The Who Sell Out on a well-mastered CD. That's my $.02, anyway.

Well, with the exception of A Quick One, all the new Who CDs are remixes, not remasters. While Quad and Who By Numbers are pretty good, I have major issues with some of the other ones, especially Tommy. If you want Tommy on CD, get the 1993 single disc MCA remaster. The original mix, and better sound in many places than the remix.

I still need to hear the original mix of Sell Out sometime. I do know they didn't improve I Can See For Miles at all over the original mix.

[SVL]

Back to Rainbow remasters...

Originally posted by efhjr

So far, I've bought two of these. Keep in mind my digital source is far from reference quality, but I do have a very good ear. I appreciate the 24-bit mastering, LP-style sleeves, and care put into these limited reissues and plan on picking up as many as I can (and eBay has been very helpful in this regard, too).

______________

Have you had a chance to compare their sound with that of the domestic releases. Myself, I only had a single album to do the comparison with (Blackmore's Rainbow - 1975). My biggest quip about the US reissue of the album was distortion in some of the guitar parts - or maybe not a distortion per se but something that leads to unwanted resonances in the speakers.

Anyway, it is still there on the Japanese CD, but seems less prominent, possibly because the Japanese CD is louder and the speakers don't have to be driven so hard.

No major differences otherwise.

Bonus tracks on the Japanese CDs are very good sometimes. I have a Japanese (Pony Canyon?) version of Nick Cave's Murder Ballads with an excellent track (The Willow Garden) that I haven't seen anywhere else. Could have been a single.

[efhjr]

Originally posted by lukpac


Well, with the exception of A Quick One, all the new Who CDs are remixes, not remasters. While Quad and Who By Numbers are pretty good, I have major issues with some of the other ones, especially Tommy.

Hmm, this is interesting, I did not know this. Help me understand this process:

So, when they remixed one of the albums (A Quick One, f'rinstance), they remixed it from what I assume are analog source tapes (of whatever generation away from the master), but they must have digitized the remixed music at some time during the process right? So, if they did digitize the new remix, they must have digitized it at a bitrate better than the original MCA CDs, right?

So with the latest batch of The Who CDs we get better digital information AND new, bad remixes at the same time, right?

And is Pete even involved in the remixes? I wonder.

[FabFourFan]

Originally posted by Gary I love McCartney's Venus and Mars with minatures of all the inserts.Yep, I really liked the packaging on that whole set of Macca CD reissues!

But here's a little quibble -
a couple of the inserts were STICKERS in the original Venus and Mars LP,
however, they are just regular paper in the JPN mini reissue series.

As I said, it's a very little quibble! ;) But worth noting!!

[Vivaldinization]

Originally posted by efhjr


I didn't know that; thanks for the info, David. For some reason, I thought the Japan mini-LP CDs were new 24-bit remasters, but I guess I was wrong. And considering the care put into the packaging, I figured it safe to assume the same care was put into the source of the CD.

But I do enjoy the CD, and I feel like I got my money's worth (I hadn't bought "Freak Out" on CD yet). I got some great music in a great sleeve to look over while I play it. Just like an album .

Your idea of the Who Sell Out syndrome is interesting. Personally, though, I don't think new digital remasters are such a bad thing. Considering how hard and expensive it is to find original Who LPs (Decca monos or whatever) I'm pleased to be able to cheaply and easily buy The Who Sell Out on a well-mastered CD. That's my $.02, anyway.

Well, these Japanese issues are largely about the packaging. Here's the rationale behind the old masterings, though: not even RYKODISC can get teh ZFT to pony up on new masters of most of these things. Thus, I doubt VACK Japan even bothered trying! They probably did the same slight EQ modification that the Japanese love so much, though.

And yes, the FO mini-LP package rules; as Money and F/O are the only two Mothers albums from this period with "deluxe" packaging, they're WELL worth it on mini-LP format. Sadly, they're already OOP. Thankfully, yuo can safely ignore them if you don't care about the packaging fetishism value.

I think you misunderstood my "Sell Out" syndrome comment. I generally like remasters; the Sell Out syndrome, however, occurs when a familiar album is remixed *so well* that even purists tend to vouch for the remix. The vinyl Freak Out!, for example, is pretty unimpressive mix-wise; very left/right, and has that Tom WIlson sound (think of Sound of Silence...edgy guitars, et cetera). Lots of cheap effects, too. The remix removes most of the processing, making the album sound fantastically crisp; sure, it's a "digital bastardazation," but it sure is damn pleasing. Interestingly, the remix has roots dating back to Mothermania (on which the Freak Out tracks were remixed as well...and those remixes are closer to the current remixes than the original mixes. Whew)

-D

[Dob]

Originally posted by lukpac
If you want Tommy on CD, get the 1993 single disc MCA remaster. The original mix, and better sound in many places than the remix.

Agreed, but the remix sounds better than the original in other places. Example - "Go to the Mirror" - check out the fantastic presence on Moon's kick drum during the "see me" verses. On the other hand, knowing how you feel about the Live At Leeds remix, you may feel the kick drum is too loud.

I still need to hear the original mix of Sell Out sometime. I do know they didn't improve I Can See For Miles at all over the original mix.

Yeah, they dropped the ball on that track. The (original mix) version on MBBB sounds pretty good to me - what do you think of it?

[John Buchanan]

In reply to efhjr:
Remixing is done from the multitrack work tapes (or presumably digital or analogue copies of those) In other words, the multitrack tapes are re-mixed down to stereo (or whatever, considering the surround formats available) In most cases, the remixes are done to roughly approximate the original stereo mixes i.e. to sound like e.g the first vinyl release. The supposed benefits relate to the use of new improved NoNoise (noise reduction) technology as well as possibly coming a number of steps closer to the original multitracks (particularly if the original 2 track master tape has been lost).
I would beg to differ with the supposed benefits offered by NoNoise or equivalents, as they remove ambience as well as hiss etc. The possibility of reducing hiss by coming a step closer to the multitrack tapes is a real benefit, however. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases (and especially in live albums), the "engineers" remove hiss and ambience with NoNoise then recreate that lost ambience by using digital or analogue reverb (hear Live at Leeds - especially Roger Daltrey's vocals echoes from left to right in a decreasing pendulum type effect) and boost the treble to recreate that removed by the NoNoise along with the hiss.
Remastering involves trying to improve the sound by either:
1. finding a better (closer to the original 2 track master) tape than that used before and/or
2. using better A/D converters than were available before and/or
3. using NoNoise to reduce hiss (and ambience and "the breath of life") and/or
4. Re-equalising the sound to make it more "modern" - ie add bass boost as well as the treble boost mentioned above and /or
5. Compress all the above so the album sounds punchier and louder than before.
1 and 2 are good things.

[Patrick M]

I'm curious, did they include the map with the mini-LP release? Or the mention of the map on the packaging?

BTW, that's a 1966 release. I still haven't played my mono vinyl.

[Uncle Al]

I gotta agree with Beagle - while I'm sure that there are SOME Japanese isssues that MAY be superior - I'll be damned if I heard them. In the height of the analog days they were using the second or third generation dubs sent to them by Europe and the US. While they touted better quality vinyl and less EQ, they were always using inferior masters. It seems to me that you would be better served by finding original "country-of-origin" LP's. Yeah - it may be a "Humorem" crap shoot - but try a few copies and you'll find the one...

In the digital era they appeared to use flat transfers - but again they use those "dulled out" poor masters. Maybe they are the best CD's available - but not the best versions I've heard.

They always seemed to have a hand up on packaging - and while I admit they are pretty, I have no intention of paying a premium for a glossy "mini-lp" replica, when I can buy the original artwork in a used lp shop in mint condition for $3 (the record may be *****, but the cover is pristine).

Please inform me of a Japanese issue (of a non-Japanese source)that is the BEST available sounding version. Even when I thought that a Euro/US CD was better than a "country-of-origin" analog issue, I never thought the Japanese version was superior.

[Paul C.]

I would say that the japanese are still doing a great job of keeping obscure stuff available on CD, and remastering titles that are otherwise unavailable or available in the West in poorer sound. This seems to apply more to jazz than rock.

Examples are the Blue Note 24-bit RVG series (many more JRVGs than US ones available), the Verve 24-bit remasters from Japan, and the Victor/JVC K2 remasters of Prestige, Riverside and Contemporary classics. Of these, I think perhaps the Verve releases in Japan are the most interesting because they have delved deep into the vaults and released stuff that will probably not see light of day in the US for a long long time. There were quite a few CTI jazz releases in the last couple of years as well that were unique to Japan.

As far as rock/pop goes - I can't think of too many cases where the Japanese remasters were different from or clearly superior to the US/European versions. There was a release of ELP stuff in K2 remasters, but I never heard them. Same goes for Gong. The Yes HDCD remasters have received mixed responses. What they do seem to do well is release new albums with a bunch of extra tracks that you don't get anywhere else. An example is the Japanese version of Robbie Robertson's "Contact from the Underworld of Redboy" - the CD already had bonus tracks (vs the LP, I assume), and the Japanese version had bonus-bonus tracks.

Even where the remasters are the same as elsewhere, you can pretty much be assured of a well made CD from Japan.

[Vivaldinization]

The bonus-tracks-on-new-albums thing is kinda odd...essentially, Japanese CDs cost more in Japan than do imported copies of American/EU CDs. Thus, the bonus tracks are an incentive to buy domestic product.

I'm sure everyone knew that, though, somehow..^_^

-D

[Patrick M]

Originally posted by David Goodwin
I'm sure everyone knew that, though, somehow..^_^

Yeah, I knew that, but I still don't know about the map question I posed one page back. :rolleyes:

[John Buchanan]

The Japanese Yes HDCD reissues are not consistently better. I am comparing CD releases. not vinyl as they are long gone.
Fragile - much worse than the US remaster - lots of peak overloading. Caveat Emptor.
Close To The Edge - as per Fragile, but not as marked. The US remaster is better.
Yessongs - better than the US remaster, although that's not saying much for such a soupy recording.
Tales From Topographic Oceans - the Japanese CD comes the closest to my memory of a UK WEA pressing purchased just as it was released (ie presumably a first pressing) The US remaster is a dull mess. This is the one that stands out as the best version available. I would love to hear it HDCD decoded.
Relayer appears to be better than the US remaster,but not by a huge margin. Unbalanced hiss on "Sound Chaser" sounds a bit odd on the US remaster. Was one channel of NoNoise machine inactive?
As mentioned by others, the cover reproductions are pretty close to exact - Yessongs is worth it for that alone.

[HeavyDistortion]

Uncle Al,

I have the first 3 Grand Funk Japanese CDs, which I believe came out in the early '90's, and think that they sound way better than the US or Canadian issues, although some individual tracks, such as "Closer To Home", sound very good on Capitol's Collector's Choice compilation. On the other hand, the Japanese version of The Raspberries CDs pale in comparison to the same tracks that appear on their Capitol's Collector's Choice collection.



HeavyDistortion

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by Patrick M


Yeah, I knew that, but I still don't know about the map question I posed one page back. :rolleyes: What map? Which title are you referring to, Patrick? :confused: