Help me find a cheap, good turntable

[bartels76]

I know NOTHING about turntables but I know really should get one. I'm pretty much going to use this for old used records that I find at the store (like All Things Must Pass, Frank Sinatra). I'm never going to buy new heavy vinyl or anything. This turntable will also be used for needle drop CD-R's as well. I really only care about it having a speed control and that's about it.

This will be a starting point of getting a hi-rez system ($ 1,000 or under) within the next year so something that will work with that as well. For right now the turntable will be hooked up to a bookshelf system.

I don't know if I should get a new turtable or a vintage turntable? I would assume vintage is better since new turntables seem pretty flimsy?

I would like to spend $ 100 or less, maybe even less than $ 50. I rather get a good needle instead of spending alot on the turntable itself.

What brands are good?

Should I just get one at a tag sale?

:help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

[Gary]

Geeez.... a tough one. If you were around here, I could set you up with something under $100.00 (CAD) with cartridge, working.

So I suggest something used, with a guarantee. An established vendor at a flea market? What brand? Whatever brand name you reconize. Pioneer, Dual, Technics....

Or Bradley has dependable Technics DJ TT's that'll probably outlive you and I! :)

[Sckott]

Part of me wants to say.....

If you don't want to spend at least $280 on a cart and a table, then you're not going to enjoy vinyl very much.

I would seriously go looking into yard sales, read DIY sites, maybe scour eBay for tables that are 1/2 dead and think about rebuilding em. That's the good way of getting the good sound without paying much.

There are cheap tables around, but I sincerely don't think it would be a serious venture for you. It will be $80, you'll eventually need to go a little further for either a good preamp, cart or both, and the sound will be less than inspiring. Poor handling or bad technology on the table will just ruin innocent vinyl.

This table will be hard to re-sell, so it would be shelved eventually.
Bradley's DJ tables, like a Gemini should go for more than $160 at least. The Technics' will be around $399.

...but a decent Music Hall will be under 3 bills, and something like a MMF2 is nice to start. Good luck!

[BradOlson]

My DJ turntable, a Gemini XL-200, only costs $99.99: http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=XL-200

My cartridge, the Stanton 680 EL II, costs $59.99 http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=680ELII

My American Audio DJ mixer, which I use for preamp costs $199.99: http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=Q-2422SX

And yes, we can order Technics DJ turntables as well, the same with anything American Audio, Numark, Stanton, Gemini.

[BradOlson]

The total that you'd be spending on just the stylus and cartridge that I have will cost you $179.94 (and that includes the S&H charge), add the mixer I have and it will cost $359.93, free shipping.

[bartels76]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Bradley I had no idea you sold turntables. Thanks for your links.

Why do I need a pre-amp? It looks overwhelming. I'm not a knob guy.

This will be something I will purchase after Christmas.

If I'm going to get a hi-rez system would I need a pre-amp??

[BradOlson]

most receivers made nowadays do not have a phono input and if you don't have a phono input, you'll need a preamp. There are basic preamps that just preamp and there are the DJ mixers, different kinds of preamps for different tastes. If you have a vintage receiver or if the turntable you choose has a built-in preamp that allows you to plug the TT in the AUX input, you are all set to go.

[audio]

Originally posted by Sckott
Part of me wants to say.....

If you don't want to spend at least $280 on a cart and a table, then you're not going to enjoy vinyl very much.

I would seriously go looking into yard sales, read DIY sites, maybe scour eBay for tables that are 1/2 dead and think about rebuilding em. That's the good way of getting the good sound without paying much.

There are cheap tables around, but I sincerely don't think it would be a serious venture for you. It will be $80, you'll eventually need to go a little further for either a good preamp, cart or both, and the sound will be less than inspiring. Poor handling or bad technology on the table will just ruin innocent vinyl.

This table will be hard to re-sell, so it would be shelved eventually.
Bradley's DJ tables, like a Gemini should go for more than $160 at least. The Technics' will be around $399.

...but a decent Music Hall will be under 3 bills, and something like a MMF2 is nice to start. Good luck!


I agree with what Sckott says here 100%. He is right on the money. One other thing......in addition to your turntable, be prepared to spend the money for a good record cleaning system. This is just as essential as the record player itself, otherwise forget the entire thing. If you can't afford to do it right, then wait. Otherwise you'll toast your records, your cartridge, and your ears. The Music Hall tables are nice and they come with a cartridge. I am a Music Hall dealer, so let me know if I can help. Other than that, I would suggest looking for an old Thorens on ebay. Also, check the classifieds at Audiokarma.com. There are always turntables for sale over there for good prices.

[-=Rudy=-]

I bought a Dual on eBay as a spare for occasional use in one of my systems, and I must say it's been pretty good. Great for older vinyl. It has the integral Ortofon cartridge which tracks decently (it's in the ULM series arm), and it holds speed very tightly. I'm also in the market for a TT for $100 or less (shopping for a friend). If someone's not all that critical about the sound and playing older vinyl, it doesn't need to be expensive at all. Finding a nice one might not be the easiest, but they're out there.

[Clay]

IMO
Check locally for a used single play TT like a Sony dd with the grey base, Dual, just about any brand. Usually the more fancy the tonearm gimbal looks the better. You should be able to find one for $50 or less. A lot of folks like belt drive, yet I am currently running 4 direct drive turntables.

Stuff I have available:
I have a Hitachi DC servo belt drive turntable with no speed control and a red Audio Technica cartridge (on a JVC turntable) that I would sell for $25. or choose a Technics that I believe has the phono preamp built in, or a vintage Quadraflex (heavy) for the same price. I still need to test them and would need $15 packing + ~16-22 shipping. I also have a big heavy beautiful vintage JVC top of the line model available and a few others. I wish you were local, I have a bunch of stuff I could sell you cheap plus no packing and shipping -I am cleaning out my garage.

[jeff e.]

As painful as it may seem, I agree that you should really invest in a good turntable in the ~$300 range. I have a Music Hall MMF-2.1 which I am very happy with. However, the cartridge that comes with it (Goldring Elan) is not very good and I would recommend upgrading it. Of course, if I knew then what I know now, I would have just saved up for a Music Hall MMF-5, which is a much better 'table with a very nice cartridge (Goldring 1012).

eBay is an option, but many sellers really don't know anything about what they are selling. Something described as "mint" could have a myriad of problems. You can also expect to buy a new cartridge, or at least a replacement stylus, for any used 'table that you pick up. Also take into consideration that many people don't know how to properly pack a turntable. If you do take this route, look for something from Thorens, Dual (preferably belt drive), AR, or even a quality Pioneer from the 70's (like a PL-12).

Consider it an investment. Sure, a $100 'table might get you by for a while, but I can guarantee that the upgrade bug will be biting you in a very short time. If you really get into vinyl, you'll be wanting one of those $300 models. In order to really hear what vinyl is all about, you should invest in a good quality entry-level audiophile turntable. If you buy a new one, you'll also have a warranty. I've had a number of vintage 'tables with serious problems, and unless you know how to fix them yourself, this is not always the best option.

That's just my $0.02. Hope this helps.

[-=Rudy=-]

Originally posted by Clay
IMO

Stuff I have available:
I have a Hitachi DC servo belt drive turntable with no speed control and a red Audio Technica cartridge (on a JVC turntable) that I would sell for $25. or choose a Technics that I believe has the phono preamp built in, or a vintage Quadraflex (heavy) for the same price. I still need to test them and would need $15 packing + ~16-22 shipping. I also have a big heavy beautiful vintage JVC top of the line model available and a few others. I wish you were local, I have a bunch of stuff I could sell you cheap plus no packing and shipping -I am cleaning out my garage.

Cliff--I may be interested on behalf of my friend. Once I get back I can drop a PM to you. His wife is doing this on the sly. ;)

Just an aside though, I really don't think that everyone has to have an "audiophile" turntable. For my friend, the main thing is to have a cartridge that plays cleanly. He won't be able to tell the difference between a used $50 Pioneer, a $500 Music Hall or a $5000 super-modded Linn. Pointless to spend more than what they're capable of hearing. A good late 70's/early 80's direct drive with a good arm, mated to a cartridge that is easy on the vinyl, works good enough. FYI--way back in the early 80's, the only thing I had to attach my Shure V15 Type V to was a Realistic direct-drive. And it was plenty good until I got my "separates" a year later. (The mistracking was gone...THAT was nirvana itself. :D )

In fact, I've even had one user on another forum get back into vinyl, buying a used Techincs direct drive. Even on his modest rig, he's enjoying vinyl more than the CDs. He might hear the difference in a much more expensive rig, but this one was within the budget and he's more than pleased. I think he spent $75 on it. If that's what it takes to get a person back into vinyl, and enjoying it, that is what matters. Not everyone needs an "audiophile" turntable, especially when (re-)entering vinyl playback. I'm on the side of getting a good used "starter" turntable and, if you enjoy it and want to upgrade, you can always sell it off and get a better rig.

[Sckott]

A good vinyl rig will certainly make you think about just how badly you wanna get into vinyl, and the experience to know the difference between a bic-lighter Sony turntable with the preamp built in and something like a MMF or a Rega, is something many of us, one way or another, have already had.

And I agree... I wish I knew then. I spent money that went directly into the TOILET. One reason was, I ended up throwing away my crappy Onkyo semi-automatic because you honestly cannot re-SELL those poor things and another was, I felt I wasn't enjoying vinyl as much anymore. A table like that actually made me SELL some pieces I wished I had kept. Pink Floyd Harvest UK's, Beatles... Hell, Cds are better, ain't they?!? I spent money I didn't re-invest. See?

It's the same reason why people who drive crappy cars hate driving long distances, and some of them don't even realize why. While the notion sounds snobby, vinyl deserves care and respect beyond storage and handling.

Unless your audiophile uncle leaves a VPI Scout in his will, you won't be on the same page as most of us with decent rigs. And you'll wonder just what the heck we're smokin' to hear great sonics.

But if you spend $80 on a table with limited budget and LOVE IT, I have to admit, sometimes shopping for vinyl is a rich, cultural experience that can be had for pennies. But if you're lookin' for beauty, it may not be something made with equipment cast in plastics....

[-=Rudy=-]

Tell ya what: I'll take any well-built used 70's or 80's table over the injection-molded trash the big box stores sell. And that's what I recommend when someone has a collection of vinyl and can't play it anymore because they got rid of a turntable, or their current turntable bit the dust. Point is, they just want to *listen* to their LPs. Through the rest of their mid-fi equipment, they'd have to upgrade the entire system spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to even hear the difference between good and mediocre turntables. And that's the point guys like us just say, "buy the junk and the complaint line AIN'T open"! :D

[Sckott]

Yes. There's no room in one's life, if they intend on good vinyl playback to buy a toy turntable.

Here's an idea for the DIY-curious:

http://www.theanalogdept.com/diy.htm

Heck, if you found a dead Logic DM101, you can make something useful out of it. Just an example.

[JohnT]

Hey just a thought. The MMF co. is based out of Great Neck LI. If you're in western CT, perhaps you can bang on their door and see if any refurbs or rejects are available. You never know...

Vinyl is worth it though and there is quite a bit of used stuff out there. One man's trash is another man's treasure :).

[quadjoe]

Originally posted by -=Rudy=-
Tell ya what: I'll take any well-built used 70's or 80's table over the injection-molded trash the big box stores sell. And that's what I recommend when someone has a collection of vinyl and can't play it anymore because they got rid of a turntable, or their current turntable bit the dust. Point is, they just want to *listen* to their LPs. Through the rest of their mid-fi equipment, they'd have to upgrade the entire system spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to even hear the difference between good and mediocre turntables. And that's the point guys like us just say, "buy the junk and the complaint line AIN'T open"! :D

Rudy, I agree with you and several of the others. Bartels will be much better off buying a vintage TT in good condition from eBay or such, replacing the belt and outfitting it with a new cart (perhaps an AT 440ML). This will put his cost at a little over $150, but it's certainly better than the new crap they're selling as "entry level" TT's. Of course, something new in the $300-$500 range would be better (you get a warranty, etc.), but I do understand budgetary concerns as I always have to pinch pennies myself. A vintage TT (esp. Thorens, or perhaps a Pioneer PL-12) will not eat his vinyl.

[-=Rudy=-]

My buddy actually had a Pioneer turntable, but his "wicked stepdaughter" (or WSD, as he refers to her, due to the recurring problems ;) ) and/or one of her friends did something to it. I'm trying to find out if he just needs a new cartridge for it, or if maybe someone ruined the motor on it or did other physical damage.

As for me, this is something more up my alley ;) :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3061762110&category=48649

If I had the scratch, I'd bid on it and sell off the tonearms.

[Jack Keck]

YOu might want to check out www.audiokarma.com They have a turntable forum and a people with a lot of expertise in vintage equipment.

[Barry Wom]

If you were in the UK - it'd be a used Rega Planar 2 everytime - they are
only £198 new + cart - and they sound great and last for years.

They are a LOT better than the Projects.

I would imagine they are more expensive in the US - but would still be a
bargain .
Tim

[Jack Keck]

Originally posted by TIM GROVES
If you were in the UK - it'd be a used Rega Planar 2 everytime - they are
only £198 new + cart - and they sound great and last for years.

They are a LOT better than the Projects.

I would imagine they are more expensive in the US - but would still be a
bargain .
Tim

I live in and bought my Rega Planar 2 in the US. I agree with everythig you say except the part about lasting for years. And that's because I've only had mine since 1979, and very late in the year, at that. Therefore, I do not feel qualified to comment on the possible longevity of this machine.:D sly,

Serioulsy, bartels76, if you think you want to get into vinyl, even on a limited basis, save up for a good TT. It DOES make a difference.

[Jack Keck]

Originally posted by TIM GROVES
If you were in the UK - it'd be a used Rega Planar 2 everytime - they are
only £198 new + cart - and they sound great and last for years.

They are a LOT better than the Projects.

I would imagine they are more expensive in the US - but would still be a
bargain .
Tim

I live in and bought my Rega Planar 2 in the US. I agree with everythig you say except the part about lasting for years. And that's because I've only had mine since 1979, and very late in the year, at that. Therefore, I do not feel qualified to comment on the possible longevity of this machine.:D

Serioulsy, bartels76, if you think you want to get into vinyl, even on a limited basis, save up for a good TT. It DOES make a difference.

[Barry Wom]

jack, you might need a new styus soon ! :-)


tim

[Ere]

Another location to scout for used TT's would be any larger pawnshop. DJ's have been known to be short of cash and bring in their TTs to hock.

[Barry Wom]

would you really advise buying a used turntable from a DJ ?

it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!!

ps we supplied a NYC DJ with 2 full spec LP12's for gigs in London last year!!

tim