Will this solve my bass management problem?

[Gardo]

I have (for now) a Denon 1600 DVD player that does DVD-A. It does NOT, however, redirect the .1 LFE (sub) channel information to the front mains when I set the front mains to "large." Since I don't have a sub and don't plan to get one anytime soon (my front mains handle down to 35 hz or so pretty well), I'm not in a good place if I stick with this player.

But I thought of a possible solution I'd like to send out for your consideration. My front mains are "large" because I have a three-piece front system: two satellites that are flat down to 80 hz or so that are supplemented by a dedicated bass module that's flat down to 35-40hz. I send speaker-level out to the bass module and use its internal crossover to send speaker-level high-pass out to the satellites. Could I simply send speaker-level LFE signal to the bass module as well, by running speaker wire from the receiver's speaker-level LFE out to the bass module? (The bass module sums the bass into a mono signal, so it doesn't matter whether I hook the speaker wires to the left or right inputs on the module.) Are there any electrical considerations here that would present a bad load to the receiver or affect the handoff to the satellites?

[Sckott]

What do you have as a receiver or preamp? Is it something built for HT, or no?

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Sckott
What do you have as a receiver or preamp? Is it something built for HT, or no?

Yep, Denon 3802.

[Rspaight]

First off, I don't think the 3802 has an amplified LFE out. At least, I *know* the 3803 doesn't, and I'm assuming they didn't have it on the 3802.

My suggestion would be to get one of these:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/icbm.html

It'll do a much more comprehensive job than the 1600 ever could -- variable crossovers and everything.

Ryan

[Sckott]

I want to check on the back pannel of your unit, but I'm in a bandwith bubble right now. Downloading....

Depending on what you wanna do, a sub would either:

1. Attach to your .1 RCA out in analog. *BEST* Becuse once you're using DD or DTS, the signal is sent from the 3802 out to the speakers and the sub amp independently as the sound track intends.

2. Send full stereo to the sub, let the internal crossover do it's work there *OK* because in stereo, things are pretty good, but for HT, the sub is being used as just what comes off the crossover, not what's on the soundtrack.

It depends on what the 3802 allows, but it sounds like it can send an RCA of a dedicated LFE. That should go to a mono sub, for HT. That's the best way I've found, IMHO. Is the sub amplified in itself (or the module as you say?) or does it depend on amplfication before it gets connected?

[Sckott]

What Ryan says is on the money if the 3802 doesn't preamp the sub channel going out. You need either that toy, or a sub that facilitates it's own amp, crossover level, volume and RCA in mono.

[Gardo]

Okay, darn it, Ryan's right; no amplified LFE signal out of the 3802. Just a line-level. So I can't solve the problem the way I'd outlined it.

I see I can solve the problem by throwing money at it with an ICBM unit, but at that point I'm thinking it might make just as much sense to return the 1600 and invest in a 2200 that does full-digital-bass-management and plays both SACDs and DVD-As.

Thanks for the help, guys. Live and learn!

[Rspaight]

From Gardo's description, I'm assuming the "bass module" isn't self-amplified. If it is, though, I'd definitely hook it up line-level to the 3802 and let the receiver figure it out.

You'd still be best off using the ICBM for ultimate DVD-A quality, because otherwise you're stuck with the 1600's fixed crossover, which I think may be as high as 120Hz. But that becomes more of a "how much do you want to spend" question.

EDIT: The 1600 crosses over at 100Hz, the 2200 at 80Hz. I'd agree that getting the 2200 w/ better bass management and SACD capability would be the way to go.

Ryan

[BGLeduc]

One thing you best check is that 2200 will redirect the .1 to the mains if you set it to no sub. If it does, it will be one of the first uni-players that I have read about that will.

If not you still will need an ICBM.

Or, you could buy a Pioneer 563 and an ICBM. Even after buying cables, that should cost at least $100 less than a 2200, and leave you with some money for software.

BGL

[Gardo]

1. I'm not too keen on getting a Pioneer 563 and an ICBM, because the sound and video quality on the Denon 1600 is much better than on the 563, and I think I'd always regret the tradeoff.

2. My bass module is NOT amplified. This is an old, old speaker system (1984) and the bass module is passively integrated into the front speaker array. So I'm feeding my front speakers the full-range signal, speakers set to "large" in the Denon setup. Crossover frequency isn't really an issue for me in this case. What I'm not getting is the LFE signal, which is of course on an entirely separate channel. If the Denon 3802 output an amplified LFE signal, I think I could "combine" that with the full-range (but non-LFE) signal going to the front mains and get that in the mix as well. But the Denon 3802 doesn't do this, so that's that.

3. I don't know whether the 2200 will redirect the .1 (LFE) signal to the mains. I DO know that my inexpensive Sony 775 SACD player will do this. It will also let me dial the center channel out of the system and redirect that signal to the front left and right speakers. I listen to music with what's essentially a 4.0 speaker array, and the Sony 775 lets me do that. Easily. I understand I may be losing a little SACD resolution in the process, since the redirection/bass management is doubtless happening in the analog domain after DSD/Analog conversion, but the sound quality is still superb so I'm not too worried. And so far I am not interested in adding a sub to the system for music listening.

I just wish I knew why the 775 player does elementary signal redirection and bass management better than the more expensive DVD-1600.

[BGLeduc]

I just wish I knew why the 775 player does elementary signal redirection and bass management better than the more expensive DVD-1600.

Well, I can't answer that, other than to say that the majority of hi-rez players seem to screw up BM and signal redirection to one degree or another. Even the high $$$$ stuff is not immune.

BGL

[Rspaight]

The audio-only players (like the 775) generally do *much* better with BM than the DVD-video players. Don't ask me why, but it seems to be the case.

If I had to guess, I'd say it had something to with adding DD and DTS decoding to the mix (no pun intended), and accomodating those functions somehow screws up the handling of SACD/DVD-A.

Ryan

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Rspaight
The audio-only players (like the 775) generally do *much* better with BM than the DVD-video players. Don't ask me why, but it seems to be the case.

If I had to guess, I'd say it had something to with adding DD and DTS decoding to the mix (no pun intended), and accomodating those functions somehow screws up the handling of SACD/DVD-A.

Ryan

Makes mucho sense to me, Ryan.

I'm now fantasizing about choosing between the 2200 and getting a subwoofer. My wife can see the trouble in my eyes.;)

[Richard Feirstein]

I too have a Denon 3802 and a passive 12 inch Dahlquist sub. I got on the web and purchased a sub amp for just over $100.00. (The type built to intergrate into a sub box. I also invested in an ICBM. I run everything throught the ICBM and it is the first time in 20 years that my speaker system works together to perfection. Perhaps when HDMI interconnects and future SACD/DVD-A/DVD players and receivers learn to play nice together I will be able to toss out the ICBM, but till then I am a happy camper.

Richard.

[Bob Olhsson]

LFE means low frequency effects.

Bass management refers to the process of redirecting low frequencies from the mains channels to the LFE speaker allowing it to act as a sub-woofer extending the response of the mains in addition to providing low frequency effects.

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
LFE means low frequency effects.

Bass management refers to the process of redirecting low frequencies from the mains channels to the LFE speaker allowing it to act as a sub-woofer extending the response of the mains in addition to providing low frequency effects.

In that case, what do you call a system that will redirect the LFE signal to the mains? Similarly, what about redirecting the center channel information to the front l-r?

[BGLeduc]

Redirecting the LFE would legitimately fall under BM, IMHO.

Redirecting the center would be a function of the decoder (DD or DTS). For anything NOT a part of a DD or DTS decoder (like SACD or DVD-A), I suspect that you will find just as many systems that screw that up (redirecting the center) as screw up BM.

Unfortunately, I think all this comes from a 5.1 home theater perspective. As such, systems without a center (or a sub for that matter) are perhaps few and far between, and the system designers are just not paying attention to that requirement.

BGL

[Gardo]

I'm betting you're right, BGLeduc. Strange situation, though. The audio-only Sony 775 does the job just fine. The DVD-Audio capable players I've had (three so far) not only don't do the job, but what they do they do in different ways. Reinforces my impression that DVD-A is a more anarchic medium. "Hi-rez" can mean anything from 48khz/24 bit to 192khz/24bit. You have to switch the player into "video" mode to get at some of the video content. Etc. That said, I do enjoy hearing favorite titles in surround, and sometimes hi-rez (or even mid-rez) DVD-A can sound very nice indeed. It does seem, though, as you say, that the DVD-A folks are thinking pretty exclusively in terms of home theatre.

Thanks to all for the help here. Maybe I'll just break down and get a subwoofer, or maybe I'll just live without whatever LFE content is on those discs. Watching X2 last night, though, I confess that the thought of a sub did cross my mind a couple of times.:)

[Bob Olhsson]

LFE isn't bass in the conventional sense of reproducing something.

The way it's normally used in a motion picture mix is as the sonic equivalent of the blast of compressed air that blows up the girls' skirts in a fun house. An echo send pot is routed to a device that drops the pitch by an octave and the mixer "gooses" that pot when ever there is some kind of a crash or explosion that needs to sound a bit bigger than the last one.

This is purely carnival ride technology. The chances of it folding into the mains in any predictable way are just about zip so I doubt that any knowledgeable manufacturer would make that an option.

[BGLeduc]

This is purely carnival ride technology. The chances of it folding into the mains in any predictable way are just about zip so I doubt that any knowledgeable manufacturer would make that an option.

Its been part of DD and DTS decoders since day one, IIRC. Whether or not it has a legit part in surround music is a reasonable debate, but its there, so it must be dealt with.

And besides, if a main speaker is in fact full range (many are not, but for argument, lets say it is), what's the beef?

The players I know of that get this wrong with DVD-A and SACD do in fact get it right for DD and DTS.

I personally am an advocate of 5 sats and a sub (although my mains will play down to 40 hertz or so, I still cross 'em over at 80 hz), but for someone with 5 legit full range speakers, they should be given the option.

And have you really listened to any 5.1 hi-rez titles? Whether you like it or not, there are titles that mix most of the low bass in the .1 channel (Bowies Heathen comes to mind).

You best either have a sub, or a processor that sends that .1 to the mains, or this one is not going to sound so great.

And while I have not spent much time on a dubbing stage, I would wager that your characterization of what goes on when a 5.1 soundtrack is mixed or 5.1 music recording is mixed is a bit simplistic.

Gardo is just trying to get the most from his rig. I see no problem with that.

BGL

[Richard Feirstein]

BUT: SACD does not have a LFE channel but instead, an extra full frequency channel that can be mastered to take full effect of that feature. This would require a 6th full range speaker and a derived sub channel provided by Bass Management. (How about a full range over-head speaker channel).

Richard.

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Richard Feirstein
BUT: SACD does not have a LFE channel but instead, an extra full frequency channel that can be mastered to take full effect of that feature. This would require a 6th full range speaker and a derived sub channel provided by Bass Management. (How about a full range over-head speaker channel).

Richard.

And that is what Telarc does in some (all?) of its SACD titles: channel six is for the "overhead" signal.

I like experimentation and all, but why the anarchy in DVD-A and SACD when it comes to a) the center channel and b) the sixth channel, whether that's LFE or overhead or whatever? The center channel I can understand--I personally would rather have the phantom center channel on music and leave the center channel speaker for movie dialogue, since my and I would wager most other center channel speakers are only imperfect matches for the l-r mains. But the .1 (or sixth) channel? Yes, it's a rumble channel for many movie soundtracks, but it's also there on DVD-A's (at least), and I'd like to be able to hear it.

Seems to me that SACD is somewhat less anarchic in this regard. DVD-A wants to have it both ways: hi-rez surround for speakers (in most cases) optimized for home theater, not music. That of course is the way the market is, so I can't blame them, although oddly it now seems that SACD will "win" the hi-rez war if there's really to be a winner.

My own rig is optimized for music, but does a pretty good job with home theater. I think I'd trust the fidelity of that arrangement before I'd trust one optimized for HT and used for music too, but I've not got much experience with that arrangement so I can't speak very knowledgeably here.