Knosti record cleaning machine - tips for new owner?

I've just bought a Knosti Disco Antistat record washing machine which is a manual machine (German origin) similar in some ways to the Spin-Clean.



I already have a vacuum record cleaning machine (Moth) but I wanted the Knosti because I wanted a way of immersing the records for a while in a record cleaning solution, hoping for better results. I also think the brushes inside the Knosti (camel hair, I read somewhere) stand a better chance of getting inside the grooves than on any disc washing brush I've been able to find so far.

I've tried four LPs and have had some really excellent results, whether because of the longer soak time, the better brushes or the L'Art du Son fluid I bought to go with the new machine, I don't know.

But one problem I've hit right away is protecting the record label. The machine comes with this clamp that goes over the label



but (1) it's made of very cheap plastic and liquid easily leaks inside, (2) the sharp plastic edges of the clamp can damage the label and (3) the clamp doesn't even cover the whole of the label anyway - the diameter is not large enough.

Has anyone with one of these machines got any tips for improving the way the clamp works? Or for that matter any other tips on using the machine?

I'm not using the drying rack, BTW, I'm vacuuming the records on the RCM.

 

I used it a lot: The edges of the label can get wet because the clamp does not seal 100%, but I've never had that cause any permanent problems such as labels coming loose, it usally dries up without any visible marks.

It's a great , affordable sollution for cleaning records, but some caution should be taken: The clamp itself is roughly finished, and even the slightest mishap could lead to the hard plastic edges scratching the vinyl.
The same goes for the "drying rack" , my advise would be to just ignore that altogether and get a simple drying rack for large plates, made out of plastified wire, as it's a lot less likely to scratch anything.

Edit: missed that you already chose not to use the drying rack, good choice

 

You might want to avoid cleaning Pye labels, as mine stained around the edge.

 

I've not had a problem with using it. The labels get slightly wet around the edges, but I've never trashed one using the Knosti. They always seem to dry off ok.

In my misspent youth, I've messed up a few labels with those sticky roller things that were all the fashion many years ago.

I've tried both the fluid that comes with it and L'Art Du Son.

I see you use a vacuum method to get the fluid off, but for those can't afford such a machine the Knosti is great.


(For those who are thinking of this record cleaning method)

Whatever you do ignore the drying times and leave the records a couple of hours (or overnight is what I do) because if you bag them while even slightly damp with the Knosti liquid you get streaks on your vinyl.

Don't worry they do come off the next time!

Of the two cleaning fluids, I prefer L'Art Du Son as it seems to get the records slightly cleaner (less noisy).

I've cleaned records with the Knosti fluid and had a couple of ticks and pops remain that have disappeared after a clean with L'Art Du Son, but that's not saying a second clean with the original fluid would not have done the trick.

I've had mine for about five or six years and am going to invest in another one soon, as the original is wearing a bit.
The upside is that I'll have double the drying space! Although seeing "The Dutch Guy's" post above I may hunt down a plastic covered wired kitchen rack!

This is the review I read many years ago that said the Knosti Disco Antistat was a good match for L'art Du Son fluid.

http://www.garrard501.com/Test_L_ART_KNOSTI.pdf

 

Ah, that must be the review where I read about the camel hair brushes that get right down into the groove!

With the labels, I've tried I think four or five LPs so far and all but one survived being soaked in the fluid. However I've found in the past that Classic Records LPs have fragile labels that are easily damaged by liquid and sure enough the one Classic Records LP I tried yesterday came out with a damaged label. So I would like to avoid this if possible.

It's a pity because this is a good piece of kit and if they would just provide a better clamp - larger diameter, and with a rubber seal - it would be a great piece of kit.

However the Knosti did a fantastic job of cleaning one LP which my (much more expensive!) record cleaning machine had been unable to clean properly.

I wonder. Was this because of

a) the brushes. Most record cleaning brushes don't work very well because the hairs are too thick to get down into the groove. I think the Knosti hairs may be thin enough to do this. I would be interested to know of any other disk washing brushes that have hairs thin enough to get down into the groove.

b) the fluid. Previously I've used the cheap fluid that came with the Moth record cleaning machine which is just alcohol and water. I think L'Art du Son with its enzymes is probably more effective.

c) the immersion time. With the Knosti the record is in contact with fluid for a much longer time.

Of course it may be any combination of the above. But I'm very pleased so far apart from the problem with the labels.

 

I've used the Knosti Disko Antistat for years and I've always been very happy with it. Liquid can indeed reach the edges of the labels, but out of the many records I've cleaned with it only 1 label has been damaged. For the other albums the liquid has just dried up and didn't leave any visible marks. I'm using a vacuum cleaner (Okki Nokki RCM) now and I've noticed I have to be much more careful not to ruin the labels.

 

I don't see the point if you've got the Moth. I still have Knosti and used it for years. I bought an OKKI NOKKI about 18 month ago and would suggest the only use for this now should be to pre-clean very dirty ebay or boot sale records. It is a lot easier to keep labels dry even when unprotected on a vac machine. Putting an expensive Classic Records title through the Knosti is not a great idea.

As far as better brushes are concerned the Okki Nokki comes with the course hair type and spares should be available from the UK importer (tel 01579 363603). Alternatively Stuart at SRM/TECH I believe sells a course horse hair type brush for the Moth. (Stuart-100 on ebay).

 

Very happy with the knosti's performace here as well, except for the "nonexistent" seal on the label clamp. I've thought about fitting two big O-rings around that sharp edge (if I could find them in the correct size) or just glueing a rubber strip on there, but it's only been wishful thinking so far. This would also increase the diameter a bit to better cover off-center labels.

 

I tried cutting a couple of oversize discs out of thick polythene today and put those between the clamp and the LP labels to improve the seal. It did improve things quite a lot but the problem you start running up against is the lack of clearance between the rotating hub and the sides of the unit. Even with just a couple of sheets of polythene in place, the hub was noticeably rubbing against the sides of the unit. And it's still difficult to protect the outside rim of the label where it protrudes beyond the edge of the clamp. So I need to think about this some more.

Having said that I think it's probably right that most labels survive a wetting. The problem with the Classic one was that it was black, and the sharp edge of the clamp cut into it while it was wet, leaving a very noticeable circular scratch. The polythene discs may prevent this happening again.

Classicrock, you ask, why use a Knosti if I already have a vacuum record cleaning machine?

In short, because although the RCM does a far better job of drying the disc, I think the Knosti does a better job of washing.

With my RCM (a Moth) you wash the disc manually with a brush while the disc is on the platter. The brush is not very effective and the disc is not in contact with the fluid for very long.

I suspect a longer immersion time helps with the cleaning process. With the Knosti, the disc stays immersed in the fluid for as long as you like (while you read a book, listen to a record or get on with something else) and you can also rotate it as often as you like, giving it a very thorough washing. It's significant that when you do this you clean both sides simultaneously so even if other things were equal, five minutes spent cleaning an LP on a Knosti would be worth 10 minutes on an RCM. Also, from what I've seen so far, the brushes on the Knosti seem to be highly effective.

The first LP I put through the Knosti was the Classic Records "Satchmo Plays King Oliver". Although bought new just a few weeks ago it was a really, really noisy pressing even after having been cleaned on my RCM and it was so bad I was going to chuck it in the garbage. But after coming out of the Knosti it was absolutely dead silent throughout apart from a single "buzz" caused by stitching or non-fill which obviously no RCM would ever fix. As I said before, I don't yet know if this is down to the brushes, the immersion time or the fact that I've switched cleaning fluids but I'm very pleased so far. The experiments continue.

 

It does sound to me this is more to do with cleaning fluids. I have used both and Okki Nokki with standard fluid gives better results than Knosti. I would recommend a pre-clean for realy dirty used discs. The Knosti Disco Antistat does a good job apart from the label problem. The risk of wetting can be reduced by using less fluid in the bath than recommended. The other downside is that the supplied fluid leaves a residue that needs rinsing off. Don't know what sort of brush comes with the Moth but this could be a factor. There is no gain from leaving discs standing in the bath I found. I'm tempted to try the L'art du Son fluid as I have a couple of noisy Classic pressings that could not be improved with the RCM using the standard cleaning fluid. Have you tried L'art du Son with the RCM?

 

That's a good piece of advice. Thank you, I'll try that.

Yes, I'm rather suspicious of the Knosti fluid and have no plans to try it. It smells very strong to me, like a powerful mix of alcohol and detergent. If I did try it, I would certainly want to wash it off the LP afterwards with distilled water but that would mean more work.

L'Art du Son fluid contains enzymes (not alcohol) which I imagine may do their job more effectively if given a longer time to act. I think the instructions advise this, from memory. The Moth brush is rubbish and if I could only find a good quality disc washing brush, I would happily try L'Art du Son with my RCM which I haven't done yet. Even then, though, it could be a bit of a nuisance having to keep brushing the liquid around the LP to keep the whole of the surface wet while waiting for the enzymes to do their work. Maybe that's why some feel L'Art du Son is a good pairing with the Knosti.

 

The Disco Antistat fluid is quite effective but I found a second pass through the bath with purified water is required. This clears away at least 95% of the residue

The brush that comes with the Okki Nokki has similar properties to the Knosti brushes though less stiff and maybe a bit courser. You could try the Clearaudio and/or Mobile Fidelity brushes/pads which are available seperately.

 

Okki Nokki Goats Hair brush £16 from Diverse Vinyl. Also do a wooden brush (short hair or felt I think) for £7. Sure the Goats Hair is as effective as the Knosti Brush System.

 

Thanks Classicrock. I'm going to try the Okki Nokki goat's hair brush from Diverse.

It's surprisingly difficult to find a good disc washing brush. The bristles need to be thin enough to get right down into the groove but if they are too thin they will be too weak to brush away debris and will probably clog together. I hear some people cut down natural bristle decorator's brushes and someone else suggested a natural bristle nail brush. Anyway, I'll see how the Okki goes and meanwhile keep my eyes open for other kinds of brush that might do the job.

 

I love my Knosi except for the clamps which has it problems as noted in this forum. The clamps are killing the classic labels :-(. I have sent a complaint to the manufacture and I recommend everyone else to do so. Of course they are aware of the problem, but as customer this is your obligation! Better clamps and this would be perfect. MAIL: [email protected]

 

The Knosti is excellent, particularly if you bin the foul-smelling, migraine-inducing original fluid in favour of MoFi's 'One'.

 

Didn't someone use automotive dent pullers as clamps instead, or did I imagine that?

 

Yes!

Memory 1 -0 Imagination

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-a-dent-puller-warning-large-pictures.181384/

 

After cleaning around 500 lps and singles, I've never had a problem with the clamps on any type of label.

 

An upgrade to the Knosti clamp:

http://highqual.co.uk/clamp-pictures/4580316614

Modified my own by sanding the blade down and cutting two discs of silicone rubber to go in the clamp, but the modified version linked above is on my wish list.

 

I have the modified clamp from HighQual and it is absolutely fantastic and very highly recommended. Before this I was almost reluctant to clean my valuable records. The provided clamp has sharp edges and is too small in circumference, which means two things can happen....as you tighten the clamp you scratch the label, or the label gets wet because a good enough seal isn't made. Some labels do not like getting wet and depending how fussy you are, it can discolour or change the texture of the paper.

This modified clamp is a revelation. I have not had a single label even get a drop onto it since having this clamp, plus the circumference wider so it properly covers the labels which means no abrasion or scratches to the labels. These modifications may look simple, but having spoken with it's creator and seeing one myself, you can see a great deal of thought and refinement has gone into this. Other improvements include putting coloured markers on one side of the clamp so you can easily count how many revolutions you have made, or dip soak a particularly dirty part in the bath for longer. The whole clamp is narrower in width to allow for more warped records. And the spindle is glued permanently to one side, so you don't end up with a calamity where you go to undo it, and the clamp and spindle all come away from each other resulting in possibly dropping and scratching your valuable record on the floor.

 

I've just started using the Knosti and I'm definitely up for getting the modified clamp having scuffed the label on my Madness One Step Beyond LP yesterday (the label was a mil or two wider than some other labels, e.g. "More Specials" label fitted only just inside the clamp and had less of a problem as a result). Part of the problem is the brushes go almost to the edge of the clamp, so they also brush the label in some cases and cause damage from the contact. I can see why the clamp is a bit small and the brushes go that close, some records are cut almost right up to the lock groove after all, but it does pose a problem.

You get the opposite problem with with 7"s. Most older and some newer UK / European 7"s (I don't know about other countries) have a smaller label than LPs, so there is also a little extra groove on them. I can imagine some longer singles grooves sitting inside the clamp, as the inner lock groove and part of the run out groove certainly does. This also means those parts of the grooves wouldn't be touched by the brushes even if you had a modified clamp for 7"s, you'd be relying on the fluid alone to do the cleaning (more reason to use enzyme fluids).

I've also found the brushes to be wider at the top, meaning that I only use one side of the brush where it sits closer to the vinyl and actually makes contact. I push the clamp towards that brush as I rotate, then flip the record around and do the same for the other side. This ensures I get good contact on both sides of the record.

That said, it's doing a good job of cleaning up some mucky second hand purchases. I'm not actually immersing the records in a bath as I won't touch the knosti fluid with somebody else's barge pole, but I have some Keith Monks fluids which I spray on as I rotate and then rinse off with distilled water in the same way. I'm also using a microfiber towel to get most of the liquid off before air drying. I'm getting very few post-clean artifacts and those I do get are gone with a play using an ortofon concord s before putting the Shure cart back on the deck. I will bathe the records when I have some L'art du Son and a second bath unit.

 

The modified clamp seems to be the solution. Thanks for a great tip! Anyway, one day I just got enough of the brushes. I simply took a scissor and cut some hair of the top from the brushes (about a centimetre in depth, a V- formation). Perfect, this little operation prevents the water from getting to close to the label with a nice safe margin. Since then I haven´t got any problem with scuffed labels, not even close. And it feels safe too.

 

Very effective by the looks of it.