Philips warns record labels about copy-protection schemes [Archive]

Sckott

01-22-2002, 10:03 AM

If you start throwing Macrovision on CDs, they'll work in LESS of the players, and as people stop listening to radio and MTV as much, they'll be in front of their computer for hours with an open ear.

Many labels should think twice about this. Yes, the implications of mass-copying sound scary, but more people listening to your record is the name of the game. Sometimes it's hard to stomach the stores, Radio and MTV. Just a thought.

RetroSmith

01-22-2002, 10:04 AM

Copy protected Cds that dont allow you to rip tracks for your own portable play, and ESPECIALLY ones that wont play in all Cd Players are a violation of the Fair Use Act.

If the record companies do ANYTHING that prevents a normal person from buying an MP3 player that rips songs off a Cd to store them in the Players memory, then they have violated the Fair Use Act, or at the very least, the SPIRIT of the Fair Use Act.

Remember, when the VIDEO industry put copy protection on pre-recorded VHS tapes, those tapes would still play back on any VHS machine.

And, hey.....We are SUPPOSED to be able to play music Cds on computer Cd players!!!!! Thats part of the Red Book standard. Thats normal use. Taking that away is act of thievery.

And How would you feel if you spent 1.000 on a player, popped in the new Box Set you paid 129$$ for, only to find out it wouldnt PLAY??

I've already told several high ranking people in the record industry that I'm refusing to buy ANY Cd from any company that copy protects. I told them that in that case, I WILL wait download the songs free from the net, where in the past, I would BUY the CD They dont seem to care, actually. I guess they feel that the mass market will still buy them.

Well, lets see........ the younger generation, who LIVE to have portable music aint gonna buy them. They will wait till someone rips it via analog and posts it.

Us Older folks HAVE most of what we want, and why would I Spend money to replace my Beatles Cds with new Cds that I CANT Rip for my own use? Not gonna happen, guys!!

Beagle

01-22-2002, 10:13 AM

Wish I had known about the Fair Use Act before I got married...

Sckott

01-22-2002, 10:14 AM

Exactly. Put the CDs in the stores, and then they either don't play or cannot be "backed up"?? Used record store, here I come.

RetroSmith

01-22-2002, 10:21 AM

Yes, EXACTLY, Sckott.

They dont seem to realize this is going to KILL sales.

I remember, long ago and far away, when one record company put a high pitched tone on its LPs to prevent reel to reel copying.

All those LPs with the tone were RETURNED as defective. The record company wrote all of them off as scrap. That ended THAT experiment!!! Why do I see this happening again?

Grant

01-22-2002, 10:49 AM

Y'all want to get together and organize a hostile takeover of one of the record companies?:D

Sckott

01-22-2002, 10:53 AM

I think I tried posting a rant a while ago, but I don't think it stuck because it was one of those "long angry" ones, and my browser bombed out. Ouch.

But I did say one thing that I think is true... The record industry has gone from biting their own butt to feasting on it. Time will have to tell. It looks very embarrassing for them though. Wish things could get back to basics.

The whole world's kinda slowing down to a dumb crawl. :( Some financial viagra would be nice.

RetroSmith

01-22-2002, 11:30 AM

You know what Grant, thats not a bad idea!!

You know what the FIRST thing I would do is?

I'd make a list of everything the company issued that was a chart hit.

Then I'd ask customers to email me with their top 10 wants.
From that info, I would compile a NEW list of the 100 most asked for LP/45s.

Then I'd digitize those 100 titles , and put 25 of them up on a D/L server to be available for download for a solid month, then change to the NEXT 25 titles .
All For a (reasonable) fee of course.

So, for simply the cost of digital storage (dirt cheap today)
I'd be making money from the neglected back catalog, and making customers happy. The manpower needed to do this is minimal......title would only have to be digitized ONCE every few years, untill a vastly better format came along.

If someone had a REALLY special , "I've Gotta Have It" request, I'd have my "300$" Special Markets Service. For 300$ I would locate and digitize ANY LP TITLE in the vault, burn SINGLE Cds and send them to any customer.
The Digital File remains on the Special Markets Server, for the next customer who wants that title......then, nothing needs to be done except burning a CDR and mailing it out. After the initial location and File creation, its all profit.
A moneymaker for the company, a boon to hard core collectors. Know how many people LOVE ONE particular LP and gotta have a clean CD of it at any price?
How about all the ex band members who RECORDED the music and only have scratchy vinyl copies?
The perfect Birthday or Xmas gift, right?

Arent I a marketing Genius?

Gary

01-22-2002, 11:36 AM

It's Flame Gary time.........

I disagree. The industry has to protect their CDs from copying. If they don't, their sales fall, industry wide layoffs will occur to trim the fat, outsourcing will occur, income will diminish, new artist development will falter and they'd start to really *really* s*rew new artists even more by taking every penny they can get from their initial success. To survive in the style that they've become accustomed to.

They have to live off the new artists. How many new artists have "staying power" these days? How many second or third efforts are as good or successful as their first release? Not too many. Yet how many of these new artists would say "no" to a contract that says "Every penny that you make goes back to the record company to recover costs"?. None.

So a few audiophiles can't play CDs? Spend $200.00 and get another CD player. Problem solved.

Last week I listened in shock to a radio announcer for a local rock station. Basically he said that there are new formats that the record industry are starting to embrace. SACD is one and these special CDs can't be played on normal CD players. DVD music is another - again, cannot be played on normal CD players. And the most shocking thing of all? These new formats cannot be downloaded for free or copied. This is a horrible, bad thing, his tone of voice indicated. "You heard it here first" he said.

What an uninformed opinion! From someone in the "industry", yet!

The industry is trying to protect their investments in any way they can. Including CD "protection". Of any sort. Like shutting down Napster.

So what does everyone think? Am I totally out to lunch here? :eek:

Gary

01-22-2002, 11:40 AM

Hey, Mikey, great idea! I'd buy one copy - for a reasonable price - and put it on my Mapster site! The advertising $ I'd make from my sponsers would more than offset my costs.

I'll be a millionaire!

Go for it! I need to buy an island in Hawaii! :D

Grant

01-22-2002, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Gary
It's Flame Gary time.........

I disagree. The industry has to protect their CDs from copying. If they don't, their sales fall, industry wide layoffs will occur to trim the fat, outsourcing will occur, income will diminish, new artist development will falter and they'd start to really *really* s*rew new artists even more by taking every penny they can get from their initial success. To survive in the style that they've become accustomed to.

They have to live off the new artists. How many new artists have "staying power" these days? How many second or third efforts are as good or successful as their first release? Not too many. Yet how many of these new artists would say "no" to a contract that says "Every penny that you make goes back to the record company to recover costs"?. None.

So a few audiophiles can't play CDs? Spend $200.00 and get another CD player. Problem solved.

Last week I listened in shock to a radio announcer for a local rock station. Basically he said that there are new formats that the record industry are starting to embrace. SACD is one and these special CDs can't be played on normal CD players. DVD music is another - again, cannot be played on normal CD players. And the most shocking thing of all? These new formats cannot be downloaded for free or copied. This is a horrible, bad thing, his tone of voice indicated. "You heard it here first" he said.

What an uninformed opinion! From someone in the "industry", yet!

The industry is trying to protect their investments in any way they can. Including CD "protection". Of any sort. Like shutting down Napster.

So what does everyone think? Am I totally out to lunch here? :eek:

You're just as out of touch as the record company honchos. Seems like you have bought their half-truths, lies, and rhetoric hook, line, and sinker!

Grant

01-22-2002, 01:08 PM

Mikey, you'r approach makes too much sense!:D The morons at the record companies will never go for it because they are too stupid to see it's beauty. They are still living in the mid-80s when you had multi-platinum superstars like Michael Jackson that trancended all cultural, racial, and age bounderies. In those days Springsteen could spit into the mic and people would buy it. They live for the recognition that a big-name star may give them. problem is, the market has splintered so much and a newer generation is not particularly familiar with people like John Mellancamp or Prince. The companies have also killed the singles format so access to the latest Jewel song is limited to the full-length CD, radio playlists, MTV, or a questionable download from Morpheus. In days gone by you could buy the single, play the flipside, and if you liked what you heard you bought the LP.

Let's start with BMG, show the other companies up, then go after Time-Warner music when the AOL half sees what a mistake it was to buy it. Sony makes hardware and Universal has changed so many times in it's existence who knows what will happen next?

Gary

01-22-2002, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Grant

You're just as out of touch as the record company honchos. Seems like you have bought their half-truths, lies, and rhetoric hook, line, and sinker!

Thanks.

Why? If you are marketing and selling the Springsteen CD's and catalogue, it makes sense to have competition everywhere, at many net sites, doesn't it? It's better to have a napster download where it'll cost 10 minutes of internet time and a $2.00 CDR to get the same music as in a retail store where it'll cost you $15.00 plus taxes and gas money. I'm sure that the price differential of $14.00 is worth the artwork.

Right? How could this be right? Convince me!

Mikey and Grant, so the world will be full of "hit singles"? No more jems to discover on B sides? No more album cuts? One of my delights is to discover amazing music that never or rarely gets radio play.

:(

By the way, Grant, I don't listen to the record company rhetoric at all. They whine too much. Wouldn't you if your monopoly was being threatened?

But if the entire retail distribution network went kaput and you sold everything thru the net, what kind of marketing dept would you need? A 16 year old computer wiz? Two? How do you protect your profits, website and product against hackers? How many CD manufacturing companies would you need? One - to produce CDRs? No more record stores? No more vinyl?

Douglas

01-22-2002, 03:32 PM

I registered a consumer complaint with the FTC today about this. You can too! (http://www.fatchucks.com/corruptcds/action.html) One of the nice things about this site is it lets you cut and paste the complaint and mass send it also to Tower Records, CDNow, Sam Goody, Amazon.com and others who make these corrupted CDs available. It makes complaining fun.:D

RetroSmith

01-22-2002, 03:33 PM

Yes, Grant, you are correct.

The Record companies ARE stupid, greedy, short sighted and way too focused on this months "earnings".

You know the BIGGEST problem with the Record industry?
They are still using the same "system" that was created in 1899!!

THEY pick the artists...not the customers.
THEY pick the music that gets recorded...the public is never asked.

THEY choose what to release, public be damned.

How many years did the Friggin BEATLES outake material sit in the vault because (and i quote George Martin) "Its not worthy of release'", DESPITE the fact that millions of fans WANTED IT.

Well, it was sure 'Worthy Of Release" when 30 million fans bought it when it WAS released as 'Anthology"!!!!!

See my point? The Record biz HAS to be MARKET driven, not company driven. The men who run the record Biz are mostly ex accountants and Salesmen who have No CLUE what the public desires.

heres all you really need to know about the guys who run the Music Biz......this comes right from "Pro Audio News", an industry publication:

In early 2000, the Major labels hired an independant Music Statistical Firm to prove exactly how much money the industry was losing to Napster....how much it hurt sales.
know what they found? At the height of napsters popularity, record Sales were UP 19%!!!!....in a TERRIBLE economy!!!
The study proved that Napster INCREASED Record Sales.
The month Napster was shut down, sales fell over 13%.

The concept of MP3 downloading selling records because it acts as a SAMPLER (which the industry created themselves!!)
is just way too far beyond their comprehension.

Well, Buddies, in this Techno Age, you either get with it.............or you get swallowed up by Big fish. good riddance!!

Gary

01-22-2002, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by mikey5967
In early 2000, the Major labels hired an independant Music Statistical Firm to prove exactly how much money the industry was losing to Napster....how much it hurt sales.
know what they found? At the height of napsters popularity, record Sales were UP 19%!!!!....in a TERRIBLE economy!!!
The study proved that Napster INCREASED Record Sales.
The month Napster was shut down, sales fell over 13%.

Hah! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Can they do it any better (worse?) to themselves?

Maybe they are just afraid of change? They need new blood? Fresh ideas? Brain transplants?

If the industry is really market driven, why did they not release Anthology to see if it sold instead of assuming it was no good?

Too bad Napster could not capitalize on this information.....

Gary

01-22-2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Douglas
I registered a consumer complaint with the FTC today....

Thanks for the link, Douglas! I thought it would be best to personalize my note. Here it is, curtesy of MS Cut and Paste!
---------------------------

The record industry are not labeling which CDs are "copy-protected." What are you doing to warn me about CDs that you are selling with "copy-protection"? I am afraid that there will be many CDs that I simply cannot play - artists that I want to hear!

And I hate returning CDs to the store. I thought the days of returning defective music - like defective vinyl - were long over! This is definitely a step backwards.

Thanks for listening!
---------------------------

Thought it was important to mention "returning unplayable CDs to the stores". For a refund, of course!

:D

Sckott

01-22-2002, 04:25 PM

One of the biggest ways to make new music popular is exposure. This world is now in big short-term attention spans, radio is worse. I'd rather have my song/songs on people's mind and computer than not. Exposure is exposure good or bad. :(

FabFourFan

01-22-2002, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Grant
The companies have also killed the singles format so access to the latest Jewel song is limited to the full-length CD...
In days gone by you could buy the single, play the flipside, and if you liked what you heard you bought the LP.The nearly total elimination of the CD single was a truly boneheaded move!
Even when a CD single IS released to retail, it's typically priced at 2.99, 3.99, 4.99 and up.
At that price, most people just pass them by, anyway. :(

BTW, as for the new Jewel single, "Standing Still", you CAN get it as a US PROMO 1-track CD single,
and the good news is that the song sounds MUCH nicer on the promo single cd than it does on the full album cd,
so if you are a Jewel fan, it's worth every penny! :)

BradOlson

01-23-2002, 03:38 AM

I agree that the near total elimination of the CD single is a stupid move. I keep up with the country music scene (which is definitely a singles genre. In so many cases, the hit singles are the best songs on the album) and there aren't many commercial country CD singles currently available.

Beagle

01-23-2002, 05:55 AM

You're just as out of touch as the record company honchos. Seems like you have bought their half-truths, lies, and rhetoric hook, line, and sinker!

What is wrong with protecting something from theft? Be nice to the record companies. During the days of the pre-recorded cassette, they were nice enough to break the tabs off the back so you wouldn't accidently erase it. Or was that so you wouldn't record on "their" tape?

I still say shame on anyone who thinks they have the right to get something for free. But it is those people who are "pissing in the water supply" and make the record companies do things like this and prevent honest citizens from making a copy of something they bought for their personal use. So blame the theives, not the owners of copyright material. Just like you can blame the idiots and drunks behind the wheel for rising insurance costs for responsible drivers.

RetroSmith

01-23-2002, 07:13 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beagle
[B]

I still say shame on anyone who thinks they have the right to get something for free. But it is those people who are "pissing in the water supply" and make the record companies do things like this

>>>Beagle, you are missing the point here.

Nobody here is looking to get "something for free". We want to RETAIN what we HAD.,......the right to make a personal copy of a CD we BUY, and to OWN that CD outright, which is fair and right.

You might stop defending the Record Companies if you knew what was REALLY up their sleeve. They want to take the "right of ownership" away from you....they want to now "Lease" you the music. They have a plan to makethe next generation of Cds "Expire" (like the old DIVX DVD) when they want, forcing you to pay if you want to listen again!!!! INSANITY!!!

The Copy protection scheme (and thats what it is, a SCHEME) is unfair because it takes previous rights of ownership away from you. I own 3,000 worth of Digital Audio Equipment. A Copy protected Cd takes away 80% of the capabilities of that equipment, that I paid for in good faith.

Was it you who said "So a few audiophiles cant play a Cd, go buy a new player"?? HUH?? You think THATS fair??

Remember this.....the "Pirates" (the guys who bootleg 10,000 copies of that new Britney Spears Cd) will STILL Pirate Cds, copy protection or not!!! They will just make a high Quality ANALOG copy and bootleg that. So this "Scheme" helps no one, and punishes us, the innocent consumers.

Its WRONG, Is Unethical, and from what I read this week in the Times, it just may be Illegal!!

I hope the Record Companies have to scrap 10 million dollars worth of CP Cds after a court case. That would be delicious!!