View Full Version : Warming up to the idea of tubes...
Beagle
03-04-2002, 11:27 AM
I recently tube-rolled a headphone amplifier (Musical Fidelity) with a pair of very closely matched JJ Electronic E88CC tubes. Up to that point, my experience with tubes had been one of mixed feelings. I loved the warmth and seamlessness of the sound but felt it was also coloured and lacked oomph in the lower registers.
Since this tube rolling, I find that it is tubes and only tubes which give you an accurate portrayal of the midrange. They can unravel complex and loud passages and keep the low level detail present at all times. And they get instrumental timbres nearly correct and allow you to listen longer with less fatigue. I find I enjoy listening to music much more through tubes.
Yet tube gear often measures really poorly and a tube amp is sometimes describes as innaccurate and merely a tone control. Salt and pepper are "innaccurate" but they make your food more enjoyable.
I was listening to Paul Simon's "Rhythm Of The Saints" yesterday. I always like this record but never quite "got it all". Through the tubes, I picked up every bit of rhythm and everything locked together.
So are tubes the sonic equivalent of food seasoning? A good thing? How do you people feel about tubes?
Steve Hoffman
03-04-2002, 11:31 AM
Hate em'.
No, that was silly. They changed my life. Before tubes (bless you Kevin Gray), I had a big giant 350 watt a side solid state monster amp, just like in the recording studios. When Kevin loaned me his little 30 watt McIntosh MC-30's from 1959, I laughed (at first), but when I actually played something through them I had quite a shock. The music sounded real, not electronic.
From that moment, (in 1992), I've been a tubeaholic!
Beagle
03-04-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
The music sounded real, not electronicThat's it, right there. It's just the music, without an electronic glaze or hash woven into it.
Steve Hoffman
03-04-2002, 12:06 PM
Si.
And the best thing, is that these days (as opposed to say 15 years ago), there are lots of tube amps and preamps for not much money. Why? The circuits are still the same simple ones from the good old days. And with the better parts that are being made now, good tubey magic can be had for next to nothing (in audiophile terms).
Enjoy!:)
Sckott
03-04-2002, 12:19 PM
Yup! Tubes did change my whole way of listening. Anyone who can look themselves in the mirror and say "Hey, and I'm an audiophile" should seriously think about tube-driven equpment, as long as it fits into your life. True, you don't need to pay a lot! Save it for your records.
Amen to all the above! I've been listening to tubes for only a few months now and am constantly amazed at how much more "musical" everything sounds. Most surprising to me is how good everything can sound with so little power. I have a Decware Zen amp, a SET design that puts out only about 2 watts, but it sounds better than any of my higher powered amps.
Ray
mazort
03-04-2002, 10:34 PM
You're getting warm!
I remember an audiophile buddy of mine ranting to me, back in 1983, about how significantly better than any component he had ever owned his new tube amp was. He was on a mission, I thought. At the time I was running a D-76, and liked it, but also owned a few others that didn't have any tubes in them. At his urgings, I too bought one of these -- a huge monster weighing in at just under 100 lbs. -- and it has been in and out of my system ever since (mostly in; the D-76 was history shortly after this new amp arrived). Had a chance to speak with the builder a couple of times about its eight Mullard EL-34 output tubes (he claimed that nothing else made the amp sound as good), and, for a time, I religiously retubed the thing every year or so with NOS Mullards u ntil they became outrageously expensive.
Then I tried some Teslas (LOL) that indicated Mike Sanders just might know what he's talking about. Next came some Sovteks and Svetlanas... no cigar. It was Richard Gray, builder of the power conditioners, who c ame to my rescue by suggesting the Audio Art EL-34s. Now this is music!Â*ˆˆ
Humorem
03-05-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
When Kevin loaned me his little 30 watt McIntosh MC-30's from 1959, I laughed (at first), but when I actually played something through them I had quite a shock. The music sounded real, not electronic. From that moment, (in 1992), I've been a tubeaholic!
And Steve brought the very same amps over to my house and I had the same epiphany. Been a tube guy ever since (1995, 1996?). Won't allow transistors in the signal path! Kevin's little Macs have converted me and all my friends to tubes. We were all solid state, and now everyone, except a certain Mr. Pincus, is all tube. (He has a solid state amp, which I detest.)
TP
Originally posted by Humorem
We were all solid state, and now everyone, except a certain Mr. Pincus, is all tube. (He has a solid state amp, which I detest.)
TP
Well, we'll just have to jump on him for that! Funny though, I thought he told me (years ago) that he was running some vintage H-K tube stuff...r
Humorem
03-05-2002, 10:29 AM
He did, and now he has gone over to the dark side.
His tube amp was no great shakes, but it played music!
TP
McIntosh
03-05-2002, 10:31 AM
I would love to try out some tubes, but love the look of the McIntosh stuff, and love the sound of my Martin Logans - WHat is the best sounding vintage look stuff......
PsychFan
03-05-2002, 10:39 AM
OK, all this tube talk is intriguing ... A move to tubes might be in my future (not immediate, probably).
What's the best way to move into tubes? What's the best component for introducing tubes to a system -- preamp? power amp? phono preamp? CD player???
I've also heard tell that you should use vintage speakers with tube equipment because most modern speakers are designed to mate with solid state. Always sounded like bulls**t to me. Any thoughts?
Originally posted by Jeff Partyka
OK, all this tube talk is intriguing ... A move to tubes might be in my future (not immediate, probably).
What's the best way to move into tubes? What's the best component for introducing tubes to a system -- preamp? power amp? phono preamp? CD player???
IMHO, you might want to start with a preamp. There are plenty of great ones out there for less than 2K. I'm partial to the Rogue 66 Magnum (but order it without the integrated phono section, as there are excellent outboard units that sound better).
I've also heard tell that you should use vintage speakers with tube equipment because most modern speakers are designed to mate with solid state. Always sounded like bulls**t to me. Any thoughts? [/B]
Actually one of the most useful things I ever read in the old [i]Stereo Review (about 30 years ago) was that tubes mated best with really fast speakers like electrostats and ribbons. But with the move to smaller drivers to increase speed and improve transient response, modern dynamic speakers should perform just as well as their low mass cousins.
Steve Hoffman
03-05-2002, 11:43 AM
Tubes need efficient speakers, doesn't matter what kind.
A speaker should be at least 89 db efficient in a medium sized room. Everything else is just a matter of taste. Also, some tube amps like 8 ohm speakers better.
Books could be written on this subject.
Humorem
03-05-2002, 11:45 AM
And have been.
Just don't accept a word they say at face value! Listen for yourself.
TP
And don't let the expectation of high prices deter you as there are several tube amps and preamps, either kits or factory built, that can be had for less than $500. Check out Doc Bottlehead's kits (the Foreplay pre can be had for $150) or the amps from Decware, ASL, and... well other names escape me at the moment, but there are others. You might also go the vintage route with Scott, Fisher, Dynaco, etc.
Ray
R. Cat Conrad
03-05-2002, 01:04 PM
you would probably do best starting with a good dependable tube preamp.
IMHO, one of the best reasonably priced full-function tube preamps on the market is the Audible Illusion Modulus 3A. You can often find these for sale through one of the on-line auction sites like AudiogoN
http://www.audiogon.com/ for $1100 - $1500 (i.e., in the Classifieds section) in excellent like-new condition [note: msrp new is around $2500]; these are capable of a fine warm accurate tube sound, have a full array of high-grade inputs and outputs and only require (4) 6DJ8 family tubes (6922, 7308 and a few other alternates can be rolled in). BTW, one of the reasons these come up often is because there were so many purchased while it was Class A rated in $tereophile and some audiophiles change gear out more often than they change their shorts (just teasin' folks!). The only downside to the AIM3A is that it is robust (i.e., this preamp has a reputation of being hard on some brands/types of 6DJ8 tubes), but the "tube-eating" rep is overblown in my estimation; I've owned mine for two years, bought it used and even though I own no vinyl (it has an excellent tube analogue section) I'm VERY happy with it as a line amp! :D
Cheers,
Robert (aka Cat)
PsychFan
03-05-2002, 01:08 PM
Thank you for the tips and info, folks.
It probably won't be this year ... but next year I may be looking into replacing my vintage Marantz 2230 receiver and getting into separates (I love the Marantz so I could very well end up going the vintage route again). I'll definitely make it a point to investigate tube equipment when the time comes. Gotta hear what all the buzz is about ...
For what it's worth....
I traded in a HK Citation V (Tube amp) for a McIntosh MC240 (Tube amp). Boom! Big improvment! :)
Then I switched my Carver preamp with hologram to a McIntosh MX110. Holy Tubie Sound, Batman, what an improvement! It was the biggest jump that I had in my upgrading career (if you can call it that).
This system is for people on a budget. Or need to pay bills. Like me.
Never upgraded my speakers - I do not need to. But they sing now with the new equipment!
PsychFan
03-05-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Gary
This system is for people on a budget. Or need to pay bills. Like me.
And me -- so I appreciate your input, Gary!
Steve Hoffman
03-05-2002, 01:23 PM
The beauty of tubes: Amazing sound for very little $$$.
Since I've been buying backup 2A3's for my Bottlehead Paramours, I've been thinking about building some push-pull 2A3 amps from scratch. It would be nice to have comments from people within the forum on this... Anyone?
Angel
03-05-2002, 02:04 PM
Drew,
You are pulling our leg, right?
A push-pull 2A3 amp, to make a 3 watt amp a 6 watt amp? Why screw up that beautiful single ended sound with a phase splitter? Doesn't make sense to me. :confused:
ferric
03-05-2002, 04:08 PM
How do electric guitars sound thru tube amps?
"Just ask the Axis."
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.