Question regarding SACD playback in two channel

[RickH]

I've been listening to my Sony SACD player in 2-channel through an 8-year old Sherwood receiver (no digital inputs, just analog). With my new Sherwood that has 5.1, DTS, & Dolby Digital, does this mean my Sony SACD player will sound better in two channel since it's a digital receiver? Put another way: will the 2-channel SACD be coming through digitally now and I've only been listening to analog, or will there be no difference since I'll be still in two-channel? Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this, serious question :)

[PMC7027]

No, the output of an SACD player, when playing an SACD, is analog only. Some SACD players will output redbook CD data digitally, but not SACD. The DTS and Dolby digital on your receiver will allow digital input from DVD-Video and DVD-Audio if you have the proper player.

[Cliff]

Originally posted by RickH
I've been listening to my Sony SACD player in 2-channel through an 8-year old Sherwood receiver (no digital inputs, just analog). With my new Sherwood that has 5.1, DTS, & Dolby Digital, does this mean my Sony SACD player will sound better in two channel since it's a digital receiver? Put another way: will the 2-channel SACD be coming through digitally now and I've only been listening to analog, or will there be no difference since I'll be still in two-channel? Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this, serious question :)

Rick, just make sure your receiver is not converting the analog into digital for bass management, etc. Do you have a subwoofer?

[RickH]

Do you have a subwoofer?

Yes, I have an Atlantic Tech sub, the PB165 that was very popular a few years ago, 8-in.

[therockman]

I'm surprised that none of the senior members haven't jumped all over this question and pounded it to death with technical jargon and useless information, so I will attemp to put in my 2 cents worth. First of all, the DSD information that is read from an SACD player is decoded from the digital domain to analog information via a dedicated digital to analog converter chip, a special chip designed specifically to convert DSD information into analog information. Conversely, the same is true concerning information read from the redbook layer of a CD, this information is converted into analog information via a dedicated chip, although in most SONY players you can by-pass this chip and output redbook CD information in the digital realm via the fiber optic cable. But the SACD information that is output from most players is strictly analog in nature and does not get outputted through the fiber optic cable (except a few of the newer high end models that does output DSD information via firewire), just through rca style analog jacks. In the case of 2 channel SACD information, on my SONY DVP-NS755V, this information is accesable both a the multi-channel out put jacks, as well as the CD redbook output jacks. But the important thing to remeber, this is a higher resolution information, it has a wider dynamic range than a redbook CD, as well as a wider frequency response. This DSD information that has been converted into analog information is transmitted to your receiver in the analog dmain and is fed into the recivers pre-amp so that the only action that the pre-amp portion of the receiver has over this information is to control the volume. Bas management is by-passed, as well as all other digital signal processing effects. THIS IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE. You can out put your 2 channel SACD information into your receiver's cd input, and thus utilize your digital signal processing circuitry, but this defeats the purpose of SACD information. If you do input your SACD information into your receiver via CD input jack, the information is first re-converted into the digital realm, then processed by your receiver's digital signal processing circuitry, then re-processed back into analog information in order to be amplified. This is no good. The less digital to analog conversions that the information has to expereince, the more faithful is the final product. I could go on about this subject, but if you have any other questions, post them right here in this thread.

[thegage]

I'm surprised that none of the senior members haven't jumped all over this question and pounded it to death with technical jargon and useless information,

I may be oversensitive, but that seems a little harsh to me, unless I'm missing something.:confused:

Rick: As stated, the SACD output is analog, and you don't want to have your receiver reprocess it into digital then back into analog. The problem is that, for bass management of the subwoofer output the signal usually is converted to digital. I don't know which Sherwood you have, but you need to read your manual carefully to see what happens to the signal of each input.

John K.

[Todd Fredericks]

"I'm surprised that none of the senior members haven't jumped all over this question and pounded it to death with technical jargon and useless information"

That's not very nice. :confused:


Anyway, Rick. The best thing to do is to feed the 2 ch analog output from the SACD player directly to your receiver's analog inputs. Keep bass mgmt defeated in the player and the receiver. Using BM will through the analog sinal into the PCM digital domain and that will compomise the benefits of SACD. If you have a sub, try finding a suitable roll-off setting (to blend with your speaker's bass-cutoff/get a RS analog sound meter) on the sub rather than the need to use BM. Some recievers can keep all inputs in the analog domain (like Yamaha) and some convert everything to digital and then back to analog (silly to not have a switch at least to choose). Do some reading on your model and find out if it can defeat digital processing totally (if you use any of the DSP settings then you definately in digital).

Todd

[Cliff]

Originally posted by RickH
Do you have a subwoofer?

Yes, I have an Atlantic Tech sub, the PB165 that was very popular a few years ago, 8-in.


Oops, forgot about this thread. Sorry Rick :) If your subwoofer is on, while listening to SACDs, more than likely, the signal is being converted from analog to digital for processing. Your front mains should be the only speakers in use, if you are truly using an analog bypass mode.

[therockman]

Regarding my statements about the senior memebers of this forum, I trully apologize if I offended any one, I meant that statement more-or-less to be tounge-in-cheek. I actually love it when a question is attacked with vim and vigor, that is how we all learn and share information.

Again, my sincerest apologies to everybody that has read this post, I just felt bad that this perfectly good question sat there unanswered.

[Hawklord]

How do these bass mgmt issues apply to running the front l&r outs from the sacd to say a vintage stereo preamp. You now don't have to concern yourself with digital to analogue conversion in the preamp. Do you have to use BM from the player, or is BM even necessary.

[Hawklord]

How do these bass mgmt issues apply to running the front l&r outs from the sacd to say a vintage stereo preamp? You now don't have to concern yourself with digital to analogue conversion in the preamp. Do you have to use BM from the player, or is BM even necessary?

[Hawklord]

Oops.

[AudioEnz]

Originally posted by Hawklord
How do these bass mgmt issues apply to running the front l&r outs from the sacd to say a vintage stereo preamp. You now don't have to concern yourself with digital to analogue conversion in the preamp. Do you have to use BM from the player, or is BM even necessary.

You just have straight stereo coming out of the SACD player and straight stereo going into the preamp of integrated amp. No bass management involved, none neccessary.

[Hawklord]

That's what I thought. I do have a Rotel RSP 1066 pre pro which I will undoubtedly use. But I also have a 30 year old Sansui integrated that I can use a preamp, but it would require a bit of fussing to reroute power amp. But it may be a nice little experiment to see how it sounds.

[thegage]

I meant that statement more-or-less to be tounge-in-cheek.

Got it. Thank you for clarifying. Using smilies helps avoid this sort of misunderstanding;) .

John K.

[GoldenBoy]

Originally posted by PMC7027
[SNIP] The DTS and Dolby digital on your receiver will allow digital input from DVD-Video and DVD-Audio if you have the proper player.

This is not accurate. No 'Advanced Resolution' Meridian Loss-less Packaging (MLP) information is passed through the Coaxial or Optical digital outputs on DVD-A machines when playing back a DVD-A disc. Only a few of the more high-end DVD-A players offer any kind of digital output option for playing back a DVD-A's 'Advanced Resolution' program, and then it is usually via a FireWire (IEEE1394) connection, also known as iLink.

Addendum:

Some, but not all DVD players will allow output of 96/24 LPCM information on DAD's or the DVD-V compatible segment of certain DVD-A's.

[GoldenBoy]

Originally posted by thegage


I may be oversensitive, but that seems a little harsh to me, unless I'm missing something.:confused:

Rick: As stated, the SACD output is analog, and you don't want to have your receiver reprocess it into digital then back into analog. The problem is that, for bass management of the subwoofer output the signal usually is converted to digital. I don't know which Sherwood you have, but you need to read your manual carefully to see what happens to the signal of each input.

John K.

This is true. Usually, if you output the SACD signal via the 2-channel analogue outs, and then have the receiver output it with a subwoofer signal, that signal is being converted from it's analogue state into digital - more likely than not PCM digital (SACD uses a different digital scheme know as Direct Stream Digital or DSD) - and then that signal is re-converted to analogue and output as 2 channels plus LFE.

On some multichannel SACD models such as mine (Sony SCD-C555ES), one can set the 2-channel playback mode for 2 speakers + Sub. Then, utilising the multichannel outs, the player itself will process the signal, keeping it solely within the DSD digital domain and output the 2 channels and LFE signal through the Front L/R and Sub outputs to the receiver.

[thegage]

Some, but not all DVD players will allow output of 96/24 LPCM information on DAD's or the DVD-V compatible segment of certain DVD-A's.

This was a very sensitive issue with first- and second-generation players, and some players did it but didn't advertise it. Most Pioneers have always done this, and most of the recent generation of Philips also.

John K.

[marcb]

FWIW, I question whether the bass management in the players themselves is actually done in the DSD domain. I notice a subtle, yet disctinct difference in sound quality when using my player's (Sony SCD-C555ES) internal bass management vs no bass management. The differences are similar to when I run a signal through the digital chain of my pre-amp.

[GoldenBoy]

AFAIK, there are no Sony SACD players that convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is important to remember that on the Sony players, such as the 555ES, setting the 2-ch speaker mode to 2-spk + Sub does not involve any 'bass management'. It merely outputs an LFE signal in addition to the L/R at a pre-determined cross-over frequency with no user control over it at all.

Now, there are very obvious reasons why listening in 2-channel mode without an LFE signal vs. with LFE would result in differences in sound, and I don't mean just in the low-end.

[dougotte]

Originally posted by GoldenBoy
AFAIK, there are no Sony SACD players that convert the DSD signal to PCM. It is important to remember that on the Sony players, such as the 555ES, setting the 2-ch speaker mode to 2-spk + Sub does not involve any 'bass management'. It merely outputs an LFE signal in addition to the L/R at a pre-determined cross-over frequency with no user control over it at all.

Now, there are very obvious reasons why listening in 2-channel mode without an LFE signal vs. with LFE would result in differences in sound, and I don't mean just in the low-end.

Golden, I've never been clear about this, & I've read conflicting info in the HTF board and elsewhere. I have the Sony NSP755V. Do you know if this model does the infamous BM in the situation you described above?

I tried it both ways, & when I have the player redirect to the sub in 2CH mode, the resolution seems somewhat more grainy than w/out the sub. However, my brain might be confused because my mains aren't full range & the difference in hearing the bass vs. not hearing it is messing up my ears. I also tested w/ headphones, but the redirect still sounded dirtier.

Thanks.
Doug

[GoldenBoy]

Originally posted by dougotte


Golden, I've never been clear about this, & I've read conflicting info in the HTF board and elsewhere. I have the Sony NSP755V. Do you know if this model does the infamous BM in the situation you described above?

I tried it both ways, & when I have the player redirect to the sub in 2CH mode, the resolution seems somewhat more grainy than w/out the sub. However, my brain might be confused because my mains aren't full range & the difference in hearing the bass vs. not hearing it is messing up my ears. I also tested w/ headphones, but the redirect still sounded dirtier.

Thanks.
Doug

I believe that all of the Sony SACD players handle the 2-channel modes in the same manner, but I cannot comment on your player definitively as I do not own, nor have I ever heard or read any comments pertaining to it's bass management. My suggestion to you would be to listen to it on whatever setting you think sounds best to your ears and damn everything else.:)

[dougotte]

Originally posted by GoldenBoy


I believe that all of the Sony SACD players handle the 2-channel modes in the same manner, but I cannot comment on your player definitively as I do not own, nor have I ever heard or read any comments pertaining to it's bass management. My suggestion to you would be to listen to it on whatever setting you think sounds best to your ears and damn everything else.:)

But I want someone else to tell me what I like! :confused:

You're right, of course. I'll play w/ it some more; maybe I'll test it BEFORE I start drinking wine.

Thanks, GoldenBoy.