'New' turntable, no antiskating.. help!

[Damián]

Hi everyone

I just picked up a Sony 'table, model PS-1150. It's a belt-drive job from the mid-70s, with a J-shaped arm and a wooden base.

I'm a bit intrigued by the fact that there's no antiskating control anywhere on the unit.. I'm assuming it's either linked internally to something else (such as the counterweight) or not compensated at all, which would be a Bad Thing, I understand.

Does any of you have any experiences with this or other similar designs? I of course can't find a manual anywhere, so reading up on it is out of the question.

My personal assumption (augmented no doubt by hope.. I just bought the thing!) is that it's somehow compensated internally, given the vintage of the turntable (not THAT old as far as 'tables go.. antiskating was more than known by ~1974).

I'll appreciate any comments, help, advice, etc.

Cheers

[Sckott]

http://static.marktplaats.nl/fotos/audio/platenspelers/9750.jpg

There IS no anti-skating, correct. Try using a mini-level (water with the bubble in it) and level it on the desk you're using. It's an inexpensive semi-automatic. For a starter table, it's Ok. If you think vinyl's peachy-keen after this UPGRADE! :D Cheap tables are alright, but can be costly to nice vinyl. I'm neurotic, what can I say?

Just make sure the cart and stylus is good, maybe look into changing the mat. I hate rubber mats like those. :)

[Damián]

Originally posted by Sckott

There IS no anti-skating, correct.

Cheap tables are alright, but can be costly to nice vinyl.

Just make sure the cart and stylus is good, maybe look into changing the mat. I hate rubber mats like those. :)
No anti-skating?!?!? Should I even risk playing LPs on it? I don't want to end up with a groove-worn collection.. :sigh:.

I've got a felt mat and a cork mat so that should be covered. Cart and stylus 'll be the same I'd been using on my Sansui turntable, which appears to have given up ('tired' motor).

The no-antiskating deal is really beginning to worry me though..

[quadjoe]

I too would be worried about the lack of an anti-skating control. Even my first cheapo BSR changer had an anti skating control though it wasn't marked (it was factory pre-set). When I upgraded that TT from a ceramic to a magnetic cart I had to get an anti-skating protractor (I borrowed it) to make the adjustment. It was the first major tweak I did, and learned a lot about turntables in the process. Needless to say, less than a year later I purchased a Pioneer PL-10 because I knew I had to have a real TT.

Look carefully near the tone arm pivot on your Sony, you may see a plastic Phillips head screw ( I can't tell from the photo), which might be the anti-skating adjustment. If I recall correctly, way back then, many entry level tables came equipped with carts from the factory and all settings were made for the user. You may be able to make the adjustment but you should get a stylus pressure gage (get the Shure, it's the most accurate for the money) and an anti-skating protractor. (This is money well-spent as you will use them for any TT you will own in the future, most likely.) Good luck.

quadjoe

[Damián]

Originally posted by quadjoe
Look carefully near the tone arm pivot on your Sony, you may see a plastic Phillips head screw ( I can't tell from the photo), which might be the anti-skating adjustment. If I recall correctly, way back then, many entry level tables came equipped with carts from the factory and all settings were made for the user. You may be able to make the adjustment but you should get a stylus pressure gage (get the Shure, it's the most accurate for the money) and an anti-skating protractor. (This is money well-spent as you will use them for any TT you will own in the future, most likely.) Good luck.

Joe, thanks. I do have a Shure gauge and an alignment ('two point') protractor, I assume that's what you mean? I'd never heard of an 'anti-skating protractor' before.

I'm trying to contact Sony but I don't think the #1 company leading the digital revolution will be too eager to help me with a product that's about 30 years old, analog and second-hand to boot.

Their email page looks like an application form for the FBI.. :realmad:.

Cheers

[Sckott]

Damian,

I would just try and use it with digression if you're on a budget. If you have a few bob, please look into something worth your valiant efforts.

You're correct, Sony doesn't have any open resources for 30 yo products.

I used to be "armed" with a cheap turntable before high school, long ago. The only saving grace I had, was the fact I was using a gentle 1.4 gram magnetic pickup Ortofon and an Onkyo entry level table. That vinyl since then has stood up nicely.

There is so, so much going for vinyl when done correctly. I think money invested in this table is sour. Your call. :) But good luck.

[quadjoe]

Originally posted by Damián

Joe, thanks. I do have a Shure gauge and an alignment ('two point') protractor, I assume that's what you mean? I'd never heard of an 'anti-skating protractor' before.

I'm trying to contact Sony but I don't think the #1 company leading the digital revolution will be too eager to help me with a product that's about 30 years old, analog and second-hand to boot.

Their email page looks like an application form for the FBI.. :realmad:.

Cheers

Damian: The alignment protractor and anti-skating protractor are two different things: one adjusts the overhang of the stylus to give the least tracking error (remember the cutting head moves perpendicular to the disc, not in an arc), the other compensates for the arm's tendency to "skate" toward the center of the disc thereby increasing wear on the inner groove wall. I just did a quick search and couldn't find one on the net, but I did see mention of using a test record to do the adjustment such as the Hi-Fi News Test record (much easier to do too!). Just remember, when you change the tracking force you need to re-adjust the skating force too.

[Damián]

Thanks Sckott, Joe. I appreciate your help very much.

For now I think I might use it.. hope it doesn't eat at my LPs right away.

I've been suggested on another forum to 'set' antiskating by using an LP with a blank (ungrooved) side -fortunately I have one-.

I believe I've read it's not the same as using a proper grooved disc since the difference in friction between the stylus riding in a groove vs. just skating on a flat surface is significant.

In any case, what I've been suggested is to 'un-level' the table as needed until I get the stylus to ride mid-side in such an LP, without skating inwards nor outwards. I might give it a try.

Finally (this is a personal appreciation), I do have my share of inherited LPs with groove wear on one channel (ie. played on an improperly adjusted table).

I do believe however 'we' (generally speaking) care more than 'they' (again, generally speaking) did back then about stylus cleaning and replacing.

I've read many times about people 'back then' just using styli until they wouldn't play any more (ie. the tip had worn off completely), .. certainly not the same most people seem to do today, not me for sure.

Sorry about the rambling post, I guess I need to 'justify' my impulse buy or something.. :rolleyes:.

Cheers

[Clay]

I am using my TT without anti skating currently.
I have set the stylus weight to 3/4 to 1 g.
I have the weight and just need to re-string it. I bought some thin thread yet it was too heavy to work correctly.
I am also interested in the antiskating protractor if anyone finds the link.

My Thorens TD124 has an arm that does not have anti skating as far as I can tell and it was top of the line in it's day.

[quadjoe]

Well, guys, I have searced all over and can't find the anti-skating protractor. I have found plenty of references to expensive equipment that does the job, but I think I have found something better: The Hi-Fi News Test Record. It will guide you through the set up process completely, and it even comes with an alignment protractor. Here is a link for those of you in North America: http://www.garage-a-records.com/

[michael w]

It probably has some fixed value for anti-skating.

I wouldn't get overly paranoid about it.

Get your cartridge properly aligned and it should be fine.

If zero/minimal anti-skate was good enough for Koetsu/VPI/Well Tempered it should more than suffice for your Sony.

:D

[Damián]

Originally posted by quadjoe
The Hi-Fi News Test Record.
I'll get one of those .. someday. I've read you can 'tune up' a turntable real nice with them.

For now it'd be more expensive than the TT itself :sigh: .. I paid around $30 American for it (local cash, obviously).

Thanks again for all your help guys.

[Clay]

I just found this great link for adjusting your tonearm, cartridge and just about everything you ever wanted to know about setting up your turntable.
Enjoyable reading and downloadable tools to help.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/ttadjust.html

[James RD]

Originally posted by Clay
I just found this great link for adjusting your tonearm, cartridge and just about everything you ever wanted to know about setting up your turntable.
Enjoyable reading and downloadable tools to help.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/ttadjust.html

Great site, Clay. Thanks for posting. In the near future I plan on getting back to the TT world and this will come in very handy.

[Clay]

Thanks for the feedback James.
Sometimes I never know if what I post is worthwhile for others.

Depending on your budget, I saw some reasonable turntables in Campbell for low prices. I searched ebay for "local" San Jose, home electronics and or vintage. Interesting stuff out there.

[Damián]

Originally posted by Clay
I just found this great link for adjusting your tonearm, cartridge and just about everything you ever wanted to know about setting up your turntable.
Enjoyable reading and downloadable tools to help.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rabruil/ttadjust.html
Thanks! :) :thumbsup:

I've been kept away from the 'table for the last few days (my sister uses the room to study, so.. ), but I've taken the previous, malfunctioning one out of the closet and taken it apart, I'm having an interesting time taking the pieces apart and putting them back together, looking for the reason why it runs slow (it's not the belt :D).

[Tony Plachy]

Originally posted by Clay
Thanks for the feedback James.
Sometimes I never know if what I post is worthwhile for others.

Depending on your budget, I saw some reasonable turntables in Campbell for low prices. I searched ebay for "local" San Jose, home electronics and or vintage. Interesting stuff out there.

Clay, Great site, absolutely useful, I book marked it. :thumbsup:

[Tomcw]

Clay, for your anti-skate string, try some non-tapered fishing leader. Check at a fly fishing retailer.
Worked great on my old Pioneer.
Tom

[sgraham]

Antiskating protractor: I think there must be some confusion there - I've never heard of such a thing, and I can't imagine how it could possibly work. There's no way you can set anti skating based on geometry.

To get a rough ballpark setting for antiskate, simply set the stylus down on a blank area preferrably somewhere in the middle of the record, and set the antiskate so that the stylus pulls lightly out towards the outside of the record.

To get a more accurate setting you will need one of the Shure test records -but not the TTR102 which tends to make you end up with too-high a setting. If there's any question, always err on the side of too little.

My first "antiskating" consisted of tilting the turntable slightly....

[Damián]

Originally posted by sgraham
My first "antiskating" consisted of tilting the turntable slightly....
Would that have the exact same effect as a proper antiskating device? (ie. is it safe to LPs?)

I've been giving this some thought over the past few days. Assuming a standard pivoting tonearm, raising or lowering which side or corner of the turntable would 'mimic' the effect of an anti-skating mechanism being adjusted?

What is it I'm trying to get gravity to act on here, so to speak? The counterweight? :cornfused:

[sgraham]

Originally posted by Damián

Would that have the exact same effect as a proper antiskating device? (ie. is it safe to LPs?)

I've been giving this some thought over the past few days. Assuming a standard pivoting tonearm, raising or lowering which side or corner of the turntable would 'mimic' the effect of an anti-skating mechanism being adjusted?

What is it I'm trying to get gravity to act on here, so to speak? The counterweight? :cornfused:

Well I didn't necessarily mean to recommend this, but...
Safe to LPs, sure (no pun intended). I brought my "modified" table in to a Shure turntable clinic once. The tech laughed at first, then shook his head with amazement and said "I can't believe that works!" I wouldn't do it with a seriously good turntable, as it'll be harder on the turntable bearings and etc. But if you had a really good table you'd have an arm with antiskating. (Unless you were Joe Grado. Apparently he doesn't believe in it.) The other potential disadvantage is that I don't know how linear the effect is over the record side. You'd need to check it at the outside and inside to make sure it was reasonably close both places.

In my case I just raised the left side a little bit. Since your arm is unbalanced to the tune of about 1.5 grams (or whatever the stylus pressure is) gravity will pull the business end downhill, so to speak. (Of course if you have a dynamically balanced tonearm this won't work at all, but I don't think you do. That would be one where you first balance the tonearm then dial in the tracking force with a spring.)

[Damián]

Originally posted by sgraham

(Most useful post snipped)
Steve, thanks. Indeed the arm on the 'table is NOT the spring type but the 'regular' counterweight-balanced type.

[quadjoe]

Originally posted by sgraham
Antiskating protractor: I think there must be some confusion there - I've never heard of such a thing, and I can't imagine how it could possibly work. There's no way you can set anti skating based on geometry.

To get a rough ballpark setting for antiskate, simply set the stylus down on a blank area preferrably somewhere in the middle of the record, and set the antiskate so that the stylus pulls lightly out towards the outside of the record.

To get a more accurate setting you will need one of the Shure test records -but not the TTR102 which tends to make you end up with too-high a setting. If there's any question, always err on the side of too little.

My first "antiskating" consisted of tilting the turntable slightly....

Steve, Damian and others:

The confusion is all mine: I mis-named the disc we used many years ago and it stuck in my mind (getting old sucks). I apologize profusely for creating misunderstanding. Basically any test record with blank spaces can be used to adjust anti-skate, but the best way is to use an oscilloscope to check it. Once you have it properly adjusted you can determine the margin of error of your anti-skating control. I have searched the web diligently for test records to help you set anti-skating and found an interesting one, which I intend to order in the next couple of weeks:
http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ACAR08

During my search I discovered that there has been a small ongoing controversy over the importance of anti-skating: some claim the effects on record wear are minimal while others seem to take the tack that all tonearm adjustments should be precisely made to ensure minimal record wear. It has been enlightening reading.

[sgraham]

"What a drag it is getting old!" Still, beats the alternative.

Actually, while an oscilloscope and test records can be revealing, there's no absolutely correct anti skate setting. It will vary according to the stylus geometry, stylus pressure, tonearm geometry, consistency of the vinyl being played, record speed, position on the record, and modulation level/frequency. Also if the test record is dished, as many of the TTR-103s are, it'll be off.

Often times if setting according to meters and scopes with, for instance, a TTR-102 test record, the resulting antiskate will be too high for most normal records.

As someone who has examined a great number of styli back in the 1970s coming from turntables with and turntables without antiskate I can tell you for sure that not having any antistating will significantly increase the rate of stylus wear. And since your records won't track as well, there'll be a bit of added record wear too.

[Damián]

Originally posted by sgraham
"What a drag it is getting old!"
Funny.. other than a strobe, the beginning of that song and of Jumpin' Jack Flash and the Velvets' Sunday Morning are what I use to check turntable speed :)