No Noise question for Steve (or anyone)

[czeskleba]

I was wondering, when did the various digital noise reduction technology first become available to mastering engineers? What are the first discs that you're aware of it being used on?

[Steve Hoffman]

For me, the original CD issues of "Abbey Road" and "Imagine". Can't remember anything earlier than that. Anyone else?

[David R. Modny]

I seem to remember there were some film soundtracks that were "scrubbed" with it in '87/'88, though I don't know offhand if it was also used on respective soundtrack CD releases (I'll have to drag out the old ICE magazines). The first CD release of "All Things Must Pass" could be added to that list also.

By '89/'90 it was common place. As some might remember, the original releases of the BOOTLEG cd's of Vol. 5 and 6 Beatles Ultra Rare Trax on Swinging Pig even boasted of using it! 1990 Beach Boys catalog reissues...etc.

[Joel Cairo]

It occurred in 1987, and Steve's got the titles right, as far as I recall...

It should be pointed out, however, that the "Abbey Road" he's referring to would be the first **officially sanctioned** issue, from 1987. The original 1983 Japanese-only issue of Abbey Road is blissfully unaltered.

Also, the first pressings of Lennon's "Imagine" CD escaped the process... it was only on subsequent re-pressings that EMI used the No-Noised master. For you collectors, the Japanese gold-CD edition from that time period is **not** treated, either.

-Kevin

[Grant]

1986, when Hank Waring in Los Angeles started marketing his noise reduction scheme on those Art Laboe Original Sound CD compilations.

He originally attempted to find a way to seperate elements in mixed songs, much like these hip-hop remixers and kareoke fans are trying to do these days with PC editors. He didn't find a way to do that but he accidentally found that he could digitally clean every bit of noise from a track.

Soon after they were used on the Original Sound CDs Priority Records used the technology on their "Baby Boomer Series" CDs. except on the Priority CDs they didn't even bother to use decent tapes! They sounded horrible! You can still find these CDs on store shelves. I'm not kidding, they are horrid sounding!!!

Soon after that Ceader came out with their scheme and it was originally intended to be used on recordings that predate the magnetic tape era. We know the rest.

All through the 80s and early 90s people got the idea that things on CD should be squeaky clean and modern-sounding, so NR got popular, along with the remixing craze of the early 90s, all in the misguided to get things clean-sounding. Tsk!

[Richard Feirstein]

From what I hear, a good mastering artist can use this technology with some success if the master is clean to begin with. Very high hiss levels on the master tape are best taken back a hair but any attempt to remove all that hiss is not without its consequences. When the Eric Anderson Lost Tapes (Stages) CD was released they did a great job. The old outtake track they found from even an earlier session is so full of hiss that they just gave it a trim. This is the right approach. (Without inviting anyone into getting into a flame war about the practice mind you).

[David R. Modny]

Originally posted by Grant
1986, when Hank Waring in Los Angeles started marketing his noise reduction scheme on those Art Laboe Original Sound CD compilations.

Soon after they were used on the Original Sound CDs Priority Records used the technology on their "Baby Boomer Series" CDs. except on the Priority CDs they didn't even bother to use decent tapes! They sounded horrible! You can still find these CDs on store shelves. I'm not kidding, they are horrid sounding!!!



Grant,

I totally forgot about the infamous Waring "F.D.S." system (or something like that). I bought the "Mellow 60's" collection on cassette years ago from a cut-out bin...mellow sounding it ain't! Some of the masters on there (the MojoMen tune) sound like they were stretched and then dipped in a fish tank! : )

[Paul L.]

Good original open reel hiss sounds great. I'm not kidding, I like hearing it, not just because it indicates no NR was used.

Hiss sounds unpleasant when it's the result of numerous generations of dubs, especially when it's cassette.

One of the things I enjoy on SACDs of symphonies from the 50s and 60s is hearing good, unscrewed with, hiss. It's easily tuned out by the ear but with all the music intact. But when it's filtered out with processing, it sounds like it's been filtered out with processing.

[Richard Feirstein]

Bet right now, someone somewhere is working on a multi-bit DSD dehissing thing a ma giggi right now. Like it or not, if DSD is truly take over they are going to have to have in place all those toys. Does not mean they have to use them.:p

[Todd Fredericks]

Richard,

Yes, I think "they" will use them. Digital marketing has turned hiss into the big, bad enemy. I think the average listener (at least many I've spoken to/etc.) consider hiss as a negative aspect and "something's wrong with this CD or them old recordings are just crap compared to our brave new world". It's logical to think that if "they" want to push a higher resolution format to the public at large then hiss will need to be sadly eliminated...

Todd

P.S. Look at all the DVD's being released with software eliminated film grain...

[David R. Modny]

Originally posted by Paul L.
Good original open reel hiss sounds great. I'm not kidding, I like hearing it, not just because it indicates no NR was used.



Master tape hiss is soothing. Kinda like a natural dither effect! Also, what digital noise reduction fails to realize is the very nature as to how an analog tape head saturates a tape during the recording process. That natural compression that occurs. By digitally lopping off everything...that natural phenomenon is destroyed leaving very unnatural sounding results!

[Todd Fredericks]

Hiss is part of life. It's everywhere in the world. Every room has it's own natural sound. Recording "room noise" for film is very important. I think of removing hiss (room or tape/etc.) like removing the water from a fish tank. Yes, you may be able to see the fish clearly but they'll die and it isn't true to nature...

Todd

[David R. Modny]

I'll just add, that where ultimate natural fidelity ISN'T a concern, these digital tools can have *some* value in restoration work. I recently was given a disc made on a home recording machine from the 1940's. It was the only surving recording I had of my grandfather's voice. Needless to say, it was about 98% noise, snap, crackle and pop - and 2% signal. I was able to get something listenable as a result of these tools that I wouldn't have been able to achieve with simple analog flitering. In this case, the digital tools were invaluable. Quite an emotional experience playing the, previously unlistenable, final product for my grandmother.

[Todd Fredericks]

David,

I agree that with proper TLC these tools can help recordings like the one you described (congrats on your results!). A friend of mine gave me an old cassette of his brother's band's single (they were a 60's Texas band which was released on a small, small label) that he hoped I could transfer to CD for him. The tape was a mess. His mother recorded the cassette in the 70's with the machine propped up against a speaker and there were lots and lots of problems. I spent a lot of time working on those songs because "Jerry" (my friend) has always been a very good friend and I wanted to give him something a little more special than a straight dub from that source. I had to do a lot of digital splicing, click removal (by hand), experiments with NR, eq, etc. I finally got something that was listenable. I had no idea what the original "true" tone of the recording was but I treated like it was a new work (like the way the cassette was recorded was the intention of the artist/it wasn't really/more like the intention of the mother and her transfer skills) because in a sense it was. The key thing I did with the CD was to include the 2 songs as a straight, very direct (just a dub) transfer to perserve the honesty of the cassette. As tracks 3 & 4 I included the doctored work I did on them. Jerry really enjoyed the CD and loves the "sound" I gave to the songs. He said it sounded more like he remembered them sounding and also could hear the "music" better. In this sense, NR and "doctoring" can help from a questionable source but for most everything else out there I think it's not needed. I didn't feel guilty about adding my own "creativity" to those songs because I included the straight transfers. In other words, they is perserved as is...

Todd

[Richard Feirstein]

Bit of a history on Digital Audio. The first team effort involved a request from RCA to try to restore some of the 78 RPM Opera Singer collection. The team applied digital audio minipulation tools the essentially invented to try to correct the tonal balance distortion caused by early mechanical recordings. It worked. For the first time may old timers reported that the resulting LP sounded a lot closer to the singer's voice they remembered. Purity is a virtue, but remember, recording and reproduction is an art form and magic. You would not like many recordings that were just pure audio without any intervention by masters in the art of trying to capture something for us to hear in our homes and cars.