Mofi's "Teaser and the Firecat", and MoFi in general.

[Sam]

I believe this pressing made Harry Pearson's list. Is this true members? I believe I also read where Tom Port believes this mofi lp pressing to be lacking in some areas. Two very good critical ears (Harry and Tom Port). Two very different opinions. Hmmmm. What gives?

[Pinknik]

So many things give. Totally different listening systems, totally different people, seemingly different philosophies on sound. Both men could probably go on at length about how the other is fulla *****, or they could praise each other for trying to educate people that there is better sound out there. Who knows? You may disagree with both. You may disagree with yourself later if you upgrade your system, or even if you trade your good system in for a boombox.

"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be right."

[David R. Modny]

Well said Pinknik! Everyone knows the old saying as to what opinions are like, so it's crucial that we never become a board where we look to ONE person for guidance as to what constitutes good sound, good pressing, whatever!

While it's safe to say, that it's always possible to latch on to a reviewer who happens to share similar tastes (or bias) as the listener...the journey of self-discovery is soooo much more fun and rewarding! I've, personally bought equipment over the years that Harry Pearson recommended, only to be left scratching my head when I heard it. Ditto for Michael Fremer with recordings, Sam Tellig for "budget" gear, Corey Greenberg, etc, etc. That's not to say that these men don't know what they're talking about. Just that our experiences, biases, tastes, and expectations may have be different.

I mean, we've all seen the trend where one week a particular version of a recording is being universally heralded as wonderful, while the next it's being labeled as crap (funny how there never seems to be much middle ground in the audio world...LOL!).



..and on that note, I'll just add that I actually LIKED Spielberg's "1941"!

[Steve Hoffman]

I LOVED "1941" by the way, and I don't care who knows it!

The purpose of this forum is to have fun, learn stuff and to find out what other people think as well. I totally enjoy reading all the posts, and I do read every single one, as does Holy Zoo.

Those of you lurkers and less pushy souls who feel less than comfortable posting much here because of possible flaming, please do so anyway. We want to hear what you have to say, even if you think some of us might not agree with you. And our Webmaster always has his finger on the delete/edit button, just in case.

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman

Those of you lurkers and less pushy souls who feel less than comfortable posting much here because of possible flaming, please do so anyway. We want to hear what you have to say, even if you think some of us might not agree with you. And our Webmaster always has his finger on the delete/edit button, just in case.

What he said!

Don't worry about the bad boys around here - we're working on whipping them into shape. Even dear 'ol Tom! ;)

Remember, everyone's opinion counts, so please do chime in!

[David R. Modny]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
I LOVED "1941" by the way, and I don't care who knows it!




Steve - Did you ever have the good fortune of seeing the true 70mm version of it? I was lucky enough when one of the local film enthusiast houses had a revival of it in the late 80's here.

The mass "critics" just never got it when it came to this film! God, I miss Slim Pickens!

[Steve Hoffman]

David,

I actually did. I saw a pre-release "answer print" (interpositive) at the high tech USC theatre, I think. Also saw "Raiders" there to. Great theatre...My buddy was a projectionist there..;)

[Humorem]

Hey Boys and Girls,

I stayed off the forum almost all day today but this is too much. You are talking about one of my all time favorites here. I gotta speak my piece.

I once had a customer tell me he liked the MOFI.

I said Why?

He couldn't say why too well.

I said compared to what?

He said compared to nothing, it's all he had.

I said it sucks.

He said HP likes it.

I said HP is wrong. Let me prove it to you. I will send you a cheap domestic copy that kicks ***. I will charge you $50 for this $1.99 record because when you hear it you will say "Wow".

So I did. Charged him $50 too.

He called back and said Wow. I would have never thought that album could sound so good.

I said did you notice how thick and fat sounding and lifeless the MOFI is?

He said yes. He said the background singers were very etherial on the MOFI and he liked that effect.

I said that's called sucking out the midrange, leaving the airy part above it. MOFI patented the process. Nobody else can screw up a record that way without their written permission.

He said you're kidding, right?

I said yeah, it's a joke. Like their record. Ha Ha.

He said the MOFI still sounds good. Just not AS good.

I said EXACTLY! Take a great recording, only ruin it somewhat, and the MOFI people will eat it up.

I said this is why (some) people like MOFIs. They don't have a real record to compare it to. They just know that MOFIs are so good, nothing can be better, so why bother?

(And I didn't even send him the most amazing version, the one which kills all domestic comers: Sunray 3U/3U. I charge $200 for that record and he didn't think it was worth it. But I do. That's why I charge that, so it will go to a good home.)

So the moral of this story is, you guys say anything you want, but that record is way off the mark.

Here's a test. Most of Cat's albums were produced and engineered by the same team. Mastered by Leo Hulka (LH for those who read their stampers) at Sterling. They have a certain "sound", from Mona Bone to Teaser, not so much after that. Catch Bull in places, but I hear lots of transistors after Teaser and tubes before. Steve probably knows what happened.

Be that as it may. Here's my question.

Take any copy -- any copy, I'm serious -- of those three albums and play it side by side with your MOFI Teaser.

I defy you to find any copy on the planet with the tonal balance on that MOFI. I have never heard Cat Stevens sound like that, and I have easily heard 100+ LPs of those titles. Easily 100+.

Robert Pincus has heard 200+. He picks them up in thrift stores and if they sound good he sells them to me. Most get traded back in because they are noisy or mediocre. (I only sell the good ones, of course.)

He has never heard Cat sound that way either. It can't be done. Like I said, that EQ is proprietary.

So I ask you, if a dozen or more different mastering engineers from countries all over the world over the course of 30 years can't make a Cat Stevens record sound like that, can it really sound like that? I mean the tape. Can that be on the tape? All those guys, for all those years, they couldn't get it right, but MOFI did? Hmmm...

Or is it, as some might have you believe, a matter of taste?

Well let me ask you this.

Cat has approval of all the original pressings, along with his production team. Those are the records they all heard and said "Yes, this sound is good. We like it. This is what we recorded and mixed. This is what we want the album to sound like. Let it be pressed."

Those records sound nothing like the MOFI. I have white label demos of every early record. I know.

Now Cat never heard the MOFI. He doesn't play records anymore. MOFI did their version the way they wanted, according to their taste.

Since it is so different from any other version, any version Cat approved, do you think that's right? Is that a good thing?

I don't know, you tell me. I mean, you can't stop 'em, now can you? It's a free country, right?

I guess my question is, should we encourage this behavior, or should we do everything in our power to stamp it out?

I've never been one for burning books or records, but I can see a crowd of outraged audiophiles burning Cat Stevens records, not for what he said about Rushdie. No. Burning the MOFI Teaser for what it did to the sound of the music we love. And throw that MOFI Tillerman album on the fire for good measure. It's edgy and bright. (They just can't stick with a single approach to ruining his records. They gotta try 'em all. God love 'em!)

I can still picture Robert and me standing in my livingroom in my old house about eight years ago when we first played the MOFI. We both went What???!! What the hell is this sh**! Neither one of us could believe what a pile that record was.

Then Harry put it on his list. When I saw that my eyes became as big as saucers.

Hey, he has his taste and I have mine. Live and let live.

Maybe his copy has different polarity from mine. That could explain it. Some people say it explains everything. Maybe they're right.

But I ask you, in my best James Brown imitation Soul voice: please, please, please... Do the little experiment above for yourself. Then if you still believe that it's a matter of taste, okay. You win. I tried. Let's just agree to disagree.

But I will know, deep in my heart, that you have got to be crazy.

Warm regards,
TP

[Andy]

The happy train just flew off the tracks.:D

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Humorem


But I will know, deep in my heart, that you have got to be crazy.



Hehe!

Well, I do have an alternative theory -- isn't it possible that a lot of the people who are Mofi addicts have set up their system around MoFi pressings? It might be that they (unknowingly?) put together their systems so that they balance out the MoFi smile curve (i.e. they have midrangy systems), and therefore their MoFi's sound just splended with their boosted highs and lows!

If they then throw on just any "normal" pressing, they'd complain that there's no top end, it's too midrangy, etc, etc.

Possible?

[Claviusb]

This isn't about the Teaser disc, but I feel it directly applies.

Damn Tom, what extraordinary timing you have.

Earlier today I stuck on the 1999 UK Remaster of Something/Anything that I just got-- I'm not doing any critical listening here, I'm typing and working and I have it on because I enjoy music as I work. For the last several weeks I've been playing the MoFi CD... well, after listening to the first song on the first disc I had to sit by the system and listen. The Castle disc sounds like a very different recording from the MoFi. Just as you are saying, the tonality of the recording is incredibly different from the UK remaster. Without reading a single word you'd written in this thread I came to the same conclusion about the tonality-- and could "hear that MoFi sound" in my mind and "recognize it" on the other MoFi stuff I've heard.

Now I'm not saying I hate one or the other, I really haven't figured out which way I prefer it yet, but I can understand very well where you're coming from. Even if the MoFi is processed, you have to realize that some people are ok with that sound. It's a preference, like Spam. (the stuff by Hormel)
;)

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
Well, I do have an alternative theory -- isn't it possible that a lot of the people who are Mofi addicts have set up their system around MoFi pressings? It might be that they (unknowingly?) put together their systems so that they balance out the MoFi smile curve (i.e. they have midrangy systems), and therefore their MoFi's sound just splended with their boosted highs and lows!

If they then throw on just any "normal" pressing, they'd complain that there's no top end, it's too midrangy, etc, etc.

Possible?

I know that for some time now I've used Steve's discs to "tune" my system-- the $64,000 question is... did I use the "right" discs?!?

[Holy Zoo]

I think it's fairly safe to say that using nearly any Steve's discs is "safe" to tune your system by. http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Andy]

This might sound stupid, but here goes. If you have a record that sounds good to you why go out and buy ten more different versions? I’m sure just about everybody on the forum has spent more on stereo equipment than I have, and some will tell me I don’t care enough because I’m not missing meals to buy equipment. When is enough enough? Now if you have a record that is not pleasing to listen to find another version and see what happens. If I threw out every recording that someone didn’t like I wouldn’t have anything to listen to. It’s getting late please forgive any grammatical errors.

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
I think it's fairly safe to say that using nearly any Steve's discs is "safe" to tune your system by.

That's been my assumption too! Just me teasing Tom a bit! :D

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Andy
This might sound stupid, but here goes. If you have a record that sounds good to you why go out and buy ten more different versions? I’m sure just about everybody on the forum has spent more on stereo equipment than I have, and some will tell me I don’t care enough because I’m not missing meals to buy equipment. When is enough enough? Now if you have a record that is not pleasing to listen to find another version and see what happens. If I threw out every recording that someone didn’t like I wouldn’t have anything to listen to. It’s getting late please forgive any grammatical errors.

I'll assume you are asking me this? I bought several other remastered Todd discs at the same time, along with Something/Anything. My MoFi disc was the only version previously available that wasn't Rhino. Now I hate all of the Rhino Todd discs-- so nearly anything is going to be superior, in my book. The new S/A purchase was more to guage how well the 1999 remaster (which I only recently learned existed at all) held up against the MoFi than anything-- if you've got the best version of a disc, how fo ya know if you don't check it? Though the disc itself was very inexpensive to purchase it was also fairly difficult to come by. It may be out of print, but I can't confirm that. It was the last disc of the group that I played, because I wasn't expecting to hear what I did. I had to pull the MoFi out to confirm what I "thought" I had heard.

There are things I like about the MoFi disc, there are a couple of spots that seem like they went to great lengths to get it correct (such as the end of side 2, as Malcom pointed to) . Other spots have me scratching my head now. The MoFi seems a little "tidy" somehow compared to this other disc (wish I could describe it better at the moment, but I cannot), a quality that I can point to about a number of other MoFi discs I've listened to lately.

As Tom has pointed out in other threads, I have no idea what the real master tapes sound like, so how can I possibly know which of these is "correct"? Maybe they are both wrong (I feel like there are sections where both do sound "incorrect"). I will just have to either make a choice, or listen to one when I'm in one mood and the other when I feel a different way.

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Andy
If you have a record that sounds good to you why go out and buy ten more different versions?

I know it may sound silly, but for me, here's why:

It's because I've "seen the light" (or caught the bug, you choose the label) :)

But, what does that mean? Here's a little story: I've always liked Supertramp's "Crime of the Century". I've had the regular A&M cd pressing for quite some time, and thought it sounded fine. And eventually, I picked up the MoFi cd - which I thought sounded really good. I'd pull that cd out every 6 months or so and give a listen. So far, so good.

Then, on a lark, I grabbed a random LP version of Crime off of ebay because (a) it was cheap (b) it was a weird pressing of the album I hadn't seen before and I was curious.

I play the LP. WOW! I've never been sucked into the album like this before! It sounds *nothing* like the MoFi cd... it's just... magical! When it's over, I immediately listen to it again. That's something I've never been compelled to do with this album before! It's gone from sounding good to sounding spectacular. And I'm addicted. Sometimes I think of how good it sounds and can't wait to put it on again. That also never happened with the MoFi cd version I have.

That whole experience made me wonder if it can be true for other albums where I love the music, but for some reason I'm not compelled to play the cd, even if I do think it sounds "just fine".

And all of a sudden, buying ten different version of the same album just doesn't seem so nutty any more. :)

[Todd Fredericks]

Finding a good sounding pressing on any album is a joy, especially if it's a thrift shop find for $1. A long time ago I used to think that if a record was a MFSL then that must equal it being a great version of the album. When I started picking up stuff at thrift shops and other low cost sources my views began to change. My US first pressing copy of "Teaser and the Firecat" is much more seductive and pleasing than the MFSL version I had (sold it off). I've found lots of records for next to nothing that only needed some TLC (Disc Doctor does work wonders) and they sonically shine. IMO, the US first pressings (even later reissues) of the Moody Blues sonically trample the MFSL versions that I have. Another problem I find with some of the MFSL releases (besides the EQ liberties) is that they're kind of lifeless and boring. Jackson Brown's "The Pretender" puts me to sleep compared to my US first pressing. Maybe MFSL was too seduced by the "audiophile thang" of clean, sterile music reproduction only meant to be listened to in a controlled environment at 38 degrees when the moon is blue and wearing a chicken suit (you know what I mean about the negative side of audiophile persuits...). Where's the beef? I'm not meaning to be all negative about MFSL's stuff. There are a lot of albums I enjoy ("Ella & Louis", "Murmor", "Trafalgar", Bob Marley's stuff, "Dark Side of the Moon", "Full Moon Fever", "Clapton"/just off the top of my tired head). Anyway, my point is that there's a lot of good stuff out there that's waiting to be found and it doesn't have to have MFSL on the cover or lots of $$$ to be spent. Finding good stuff for me is part of the fun...

Todd

[Humorem]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo

Then, on a lark, I grabbed a random LP version of Crime off of ebay because (a) it was cheap (b) it was a weird pressing of the album I hadn't seen before and I was curious.

I play the LP. WOW! I've never been sucked into the album like this before! It sounds *nothing* like the MoFi cd... it's just... magical! When it's over, I immediately listen to it again. That's something I've never been compelled to do with this album before! It's gone from sounding good to sounding spectacular. And I'm addicted. Sometimes I think of how good it sounds and can't wait to put it on again. That also never happened with the MoFi cd version I have.

That whole experience made me wonder if it can be true for other albums where I love the music, but for some reason I'm not compelled to play the cd, even if I do think it sounds "just fine".

And all of a sudden, buying ten different version of the same album just doesn't seem so nutty any more. :)

WORDS OF WISDOM!!!!

EVERYBODY READ THIS ABOUT THREE TIMES THROUGH!!!

Now that I've calmed down...

Hey Jeff, you are in for a real treat. In an older catalog I say there's a new and better version of Crime on Heavy Vinyl. Guaranteed to murder your copy. (What is yours by the way?)
It's coming in your next order, on the house. Let's see what you think of it. It's the Anti-MOFI: natural tonal balance, baby!

Now you know first hand why the MOFI CD of Crime and Dark Side and dozens more do not impress me. I have records that just kill 'em, like old Jeff's copy of Crime, but better. Better Records, see?

Jeff, thanks for sharing with us how vinyl saved your soul. There is no other way to audio heaven but through it. All you CD only guys, repent your evil ways. It's not too late.

But don't wait until you're on your death bed to accept vinyl. Get some records now and start living better -- through analog.

Warmly, as always,
TP

[Humorem]

From one of my customers who read the thread, verbatim:

"Interesting posts. Like many other unsuspecting Cat Stevens fans, I bought
the MoFi's. In my case, I have probably a total of ten different pressings
of each of the three you mention including an early pink label Island. You
are clearly right.. Interestingly, I really like some of the very early US
pressings."

Good point at the end there. My favorite HOT COPY of Tillerman is domestic. Steve's heard it up against the famous Pink Label Brit. It kills it. Half the harmonic distortion. It's amazing.

You know how I discovered it? I played it and went wow! (I actually put a post it note saying wow on the cover. True story.)

Now this is where it gets good.

Years later I happened to chance upon a WLD (White Label Demo) copy and miracle of miracles, it had the same stamper numbers!

Mystery solved! This is the album (we assume) Cat approved. Can't blame him. It's amazing.

Want to know the hot stamper numbers? I'll just bet you do. Only took me fifteen years of being on the road to find out. Of course I didn't have anyone to tell me what to look for. You should be able to do it no more than ten tops. I'll check back with you in 2012 and see how you're coming along.

Warmly, TP

[PsychFan]

This is the kind of thread I love to read!

I just started collecting Cat Stevens LPs about a year ago. I've got at least one copy of most of 'em now ... All standard US versions, with 1 exception I'll note below.

My two faves musically (no surprises here) are Tillerman and Teaser. My Tillerman is a brown-label A&M ... extremely clean and I love the music, but the sound is noticeably thin (VERY tipped up, all highs and no bass). It's the only copy I've ever listened to, but I've gotta believe it's supposed to sound better ... I'll have to try some other copies.

As far as Teaser, I have a later US (off-white label with huge brown "A&M" logo, and very large song-title type), as well as a UK Island (palm-tree label). The UK kicks the behind of the US (particularly in the dynamics department), but my UK copy suffers from damaged grooves on some of Side 2. (Side 1 is awesome.)

I'll have to see if I can find a brown-label A&M US Teaser. I see these records fairly frequently in my travels around the Boston area's used-record shops ...

Thanks all for the info and insights!

[Todd Fredericks]

Tom,

Is the new "heavy" vinyl 'Crime of the Century' you've been raving about the one by Speaker's Corner? Also, I'd like to be on your catalog mailing list. I like to buy records and I also enoy "better" records, so ya may have future customer...

Todd

[Humorem]

Originally posted by Todd Fredericks
Tom,

Is the new "heavy" vinyl 'Crime of the Century' you've been raving about the one by Speaker's Corner? Also, I'd like to be on your catalog mailing list. I like to buy records and I also enoy "better" records, so ya may have future customer...
Todd

Yes, it's excellent.

Send me your address and I will be happy to mail you a catalog.

TP

[Humorem]

Originally posted by Todd Fredericks
I'm not meaning to be all negative about MFSL's stuff. There are a lot of albums I enjoy ("Ella & Louis", "Murmor", "Trafalgar", Bob Marley's stuff, "Dark Side of the Moon", "Full Moon Fever", "Clapton"/just off the top of my tired head).
Todd

Ella and Louis?!! Did you notice all the sibilance? That record is so bad I returned it to them as defective, only to find out they all sound like that.

Here's why: cutters have what are called de-essing limiters. They keep sibilance under control.

MOFI, in their wisdom, disconnected theirs! More pure signal path.

Pure sh** signal path you mean! With the RIAA curve boost and SR's boost you have one sibilant piece of trash on your hands when you do that.

Todd, play it again. You can't possibly tell me you don't hear all that spit. It ain't on any other version. It ain't on the CD. MOFI put it there. That's why I AM all negative about their stuff.

TP

[Ronflugelguy]

First of all. back in the late seventies, a lot of people bit the carrot,(myself included) and bought into MOFI big. i think this was due to the fact that consistantly the vinyl was quiet, which was most of the time a hit and miss with standard records . When MOFI started releasing a number of very popular LPs we all jumped in and said "That sounds better", but it was just because it was the quietest medium we had!!! Kind of fools you! When Cd came out, again, the background was quieter, but immediately, I noticed something wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I didn't purchase a CD player until 1987, only because they were starting to do CD only releases. But way before this, all these MOFI's that I had bought, were already sitting on my shelf,gathering dust. There were a few that I did listen to,but for the most part I was listening to standard pressings, and with the exception of alittle noise, mostly sounded as good or better.As iI have aquired mutiple different pressings of the same title,I haved noted that there are great variances as Humoren has stated. But don't get me wrong, there MOFIs out there that do sound good and if you get a good price for them , then go for it!!!