What should I be looking for in a valve/tube amp?

[Mal]

Ok, the guy who is selling these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3041717955&category=3280&rd=1) monoblocks is coming round tomorrow. What should I be listening/looking for to ensure I am not getting a pair of duds?!

Obviously, if they sound amazing that will be a good start but is there anything else I should listen for and look for?

What I know so far is this:

Each monoblock has one Edicron 5881 and one Golden Dragon E82CC valve. Knowing nothing about valves I don't know if this is a good thing or not or whether it tells you anything at all!!

Apparently they deliver about 10W each - will this be enough for my Quad ESL 57's?

Seemingly these were manufactured by a company called "Vintage Radio Restorations" - not sure who they are/were (I could find no info on the web....). The owner pronounced the name "gtikon" as "G. T. Ikon" if that helps anyone (I expect no-one's heard of these babies but you never know :p).

The pre-amp is a Kelvin Lab's one but that is all I know (could be solid state for all I know).

I await your advice with great anticipation (I hope I get more replies than I did for my last post about these amps :D).......


:)

[Jeffrey]

Originally posted by Malc S
Obviously, if they sound amazing that will be a good start but is there anything else I should listen for and look for?

Apparently they deliver about 10W each - will this be enough for my Quad ESL 57's?

:)

Hi Malc,

Dunno those particular tube units but love your speakers. :) IMO, the Quads are efficient enuf to be driven w/ 10 tube watts BUT others here have disagreed about this exact subject before. Quads sure do get a broad array of opinions. :)

I would be listening for distortion, feedback, etc. from the tubes themselves (yesiree, put your ear to the units) and the speakers. If the amp/preamp are dead quiet and there is minimal added distortion coming from the speakers i would then focus on the sound itself.

Good Luck,
Jeffrey

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by Malc S
Ok, the guy who is selling these (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3041717955&category=3280&rd=1) monoblocks is coming round tomorrow. What should I be listening/looking for to ensure I am not getting a pair of duds?!

Obviously, if they sound amazing that will be a good start but is there anything else I should listen for and look for?

What I know so far is this:

Each monoblock has one Edicron 5881 and one Golden Dragon E82CC valve. Knowing nothing about valves I don't know if this is a good thing or not or whether it tells you anything at all!!

Apparently they deliver about 10W each - will this be enough for my Quad ESL 57's?

Seemingly these were manufactured by a company called "Vintage Radio Restorations" - not sure who they are/were (I could find no info on the web....). The owner pronounced the name "gtikon" as "G. T. Ikon" if that helps anyone (I expect no-one's heard of these babies but you never know :p).

The pre-amp is a Kelvin Lab's one but that is all I know (could be solid state for all I know).

I await your advice with great anticipation (I hope I get more replies than I did for my last post about these amps :D).......


:)

I know nothing about those amps, but when in doubt, PASS!

So, that being said, if someone (not necessarily this guy) is coming over to your place to demo something for you, do this.

Pick one or two CD's that you know VERY WELL. Pick one song from each, hopefully with bass and voice on them. Play these two tracks a bunch of times on your current system, until you know their sonic signature by heart.

When the new gear is slipped in, check and see if:

The bass gets better or worse, the midrange blooms or dies, the voice sounds more or less realistic, the overall sound is better, more dynamic and more fun to listen to than what you have now. DON'T let someone else play THEIR demo. Just use music that you know well on your current system.

I doubt 10 watts will power Quads though...

[Mal]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
....I doubt 10 watts will power Quads though...

Will this be obvious? Will a lack of power only reveal itself at higher listening volumes (as you can tell, I really am a novice when it comes to valve amps)?

:)

[Jeffrey]

Originally posted by Malc S


Will this be obvious? Will a lack of power only reveal itself at higher listening volumes (as you can tell, I really am a novice when it comes to valve amps)?

:)

Hi Malc,

As hinted at above, SH & i have debated this one before. Here's the thread:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18034&highlight=quad+speakers

-Jeffrey

[Mal]

Originally posted by Jeffrey


Hi Malc,

As hinted at above, SH & i have debated this one before. Here's the thread:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18034&highlight=quad+speakers

-Jeffrey

Thanks Jeffrey - don't know how I missed that thread but it certainly was interesting reading as a Quad owner! :agree:

I'm currently running the Quads on a 15 Watt proto-type quasi class-A solid state amp made by a good friend of mine with no problems apart from slightly light bass response compared with my 50 Watt solid state class-B amp - whether the power difference is the reason for the sonic difference I don't know....

What I need to know is what to listen for as evidence of a lack of power - will distortion be the signature to listen for or is there some other subtle effect to watch for?

Also, will the amp be in any danger if the Quads demand too much current?

I read before about the Quad II 15 Watt amp being a good partner for the ESL-57's so 10 Watts may just do the job......


:)

[Tony Plachy]

More than distortion, because remember tube amps distort nicely as opposed to badly, you will notice a weakness of bass, soundstage and dynamics (this from a guy who has 140 watts per channel out of tubes). The amps could be in danger it just depend on how there internal limiting circuits work.

[Jeffrey]

Originally posted by Malc S


What I need to know is what to listen for as evidence of a lack of power - will distortion be the signature to listen for or is there some other subtle effect to watch for?

Also, will the amp be in any danger if the Quads demand too much current?

I read before about the Quad II 15 Watt amp being a good partner for the ESL-57's so 10 Watts may just do the job......


:)

Hi Malc,

I completely agree w/ ALP's answers to your questions above. My comments concerning distortion were more directed towards the condition of the used amp/preamp than compatability w/ your ESL-57's. The used tube gear i've purchased shows it's condition almost immediately. Bad tubes, caps, etc. create bad distortion (unlike the good sound distortion ALP addressed) and other obvious problems.

Please let us know whatcha think of 'em and how they pair with your ESL-57's.

Thanks,
Jeffrey

[7_V]

So, what's the story, Malc?

Steve

[Mal]

Ah, now I see why people talk about valve/tube amplification with so much enthusiasm :D.

I auditioned the monoblocks today and was generally impressed with the sound. Although they weren't amazing in every respect they certainly had a little something that my solid state amps don't.

As far as being able to handle the Quads I didn't notice any problems at all. The deeper bass was a little loose and wooly but this is also true with the solid state amps so maybe it's the Quads.....

The thing that impressed me was the general enjoyment factor. While I'm not sure that these monoblocks are anything special compared with other valve amps, there was a level of involvment in the listening experience which I am not used to - having never listened to valve amplification in a hi-fi set up I can only assume that this is the difference.

As to the amps themselves, there is no bias control (unless it is inside?) - is this a problem? Also, one was humming a little more than the other - neither was overly loud but could this indicate any potential problems - it sounded like transformer hum to me but could it be the valves? With the covers on the units I could only see one of the valves in each amp - there was an orange glow from the lower part of the valve - I've read that a red glow indicates either bad valves or that the bias need adjusting. I assume orange is OK but I am just guessing - is this right?

So, while I'm not 100% sure about these particular amps, I have seen the light (literally!). I definitely need to get myself some valve amplification. What would you valve-heads recommend as a good amp to start with given a limited budget. These amps are on for £300 (~$500) but the reserve price is higher (can't tell you what it is as this would be a little unfair to the seller!). Can anyone recommend a good valve amp for under $500 (I assume 2nd hand is the way to go - or maybe DIY)?.

Thanks for the advice from everyone so far by the way - Steve, I used your amazing gold CD of "Ingredients In A Recipe For Soul" as my main auditioning tool - those drums towards the end of "Born To Be Blue" may just be the most incredible dynamics I've ever heard in a recording :cool:.

:)

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by Malc S
Ah, now I see why people talk about valve/tube amplification with so much enthusiasm :D.


Thanks for the advice from everyone so far by the way - Steve, I used your amazing gold CD of "Ingredients In A Recipe For Soul" as my main auditioning tool - those drums towards the end of "Born To Be Blue" may just be the most incredible dynamics I've ever heard in a recording :cool:.

:)

You're kidding? I've used that very same track to do some audio system testing as well. Great sounding Capitol Studios, NYC recording!

If you make sure the drums stay dynamic no matter what the amps you use, that is half the struggle right there.

[Tony Plachy]

Originally posted by Malc S
Ah, now I see why people talk about valve/tube amplification with so much enthusiasm :D.

I auditioned the monoblocks today and was generally impressed with the sound. Although they weren't amazing in every respect they certainly had a little something that my solid state amps don't.

As far as being able to handle the Quads I didn't notice any problems at all. The deeper bass was a little loose and wooly but this is also true with the solid state amps so maybe it's the Quads.....

The thing that impressed me was the general enjoyment factor. While I'm not sure that these monoblocks are anything special compared with other valve amps, there was a level of involvment in the listening experience which I am not used to - having never listened to valve amplification in a hi-fi set up I can only assume that this is the difference.

As to the amps themselves, there is no bias control (unless it is inside?) - is this a problem? Also, one was humming a little more than the other - neither was overly loud but could this indicate any potential problems - it sounded like transformer hum to me but could it be the valves? With the covers on the units I could only see one of the valves in each amp - there was an orange glow from the lower part of the valve - I've read that a red glow indicates either bad valves or that the bias need adjusting. I assume orange is OK but I am just guessing - is this right?

So, while I'm not 100% sure about these particular amps, I have seen the light (literally!). I definitely need to get myself some valve amplification. What would you valve-heads recommend as a good amp to start with given a limited budget. These amps are on for £300 (~$500) but the reserve price is higher (can't tell you what it is as this would be a little unfair to the seller!). Can anyone recommend a good valve amp for under $500 (I assume 2nd hand is the way to go - or maybe DIY)?.


Thanks for the advice from everyone so far by the way - Steve, I used your amazing gold CD of "Ingredients In A Recipe For Soul" as my main auditioning tool - those drums towards the end of "Born To Be Blue" may just be the most incredible dynamics I've ever heard in a recording :cool:.

:)

Malc S, Please understand that my tube monoblocks are completely different from what you auditioned (ultralinear configuration 140 watts each) so take my advice with a grain of salt if you know what I mean. The main think you should notice from tubes is a sweetness. The think I notice it most on is cymbals. On SS they a harsh - on tubes they are cymbals. As to the hum my brand new c-j P12's had a hum in one of them from the power transformer. I called c-j, they said do not worry it will get better. After about nine months of break in it went away, If the hum is from the amp itself try figuring out which component is humming and tighten it or even consider smacking it one, or just wait. If the hum is in the signal that the amp produces that is more serious. As to the bias control it is nice to have one, but you can always by matched pairs of tubes if you do not have one. I have no idea how to convert US to British currency or what things sell for over there I think at your price point used is the way to go. There is an excellent used stereo store here by me in NY (Toys From The Attic) maybe you could find they same near you.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman


You're kidding? I've used that very same track to do some audio system testing as well. Great sounding Capitol Studios, NYC recording!

If you make sure the drums stay dynamic no matter what the amps you use, that is half the struggle right there.

Well, great minds really do think alike! :D

I was totally floored the first time I heard those drums - great recording mastered to perfection :cool:.

The monoblocks I auditioned handled the dynamics of those drums very well, as does my Onix OA21 50wpc solid state amp (the owner of the monoblocks thinks they deliver about 10 watts each but this is not necessarily the case). The 15 watt proto-type solid-state amp I have at the moment doesn't handle those drums quite so well.....


I'm beginning to think my best bet for an entry into valve amplification might be either a Leak Stereo 20 or a pair of Quad II monoblocks. These are both widely available here in the UK and there is loads of information on the web for DIY restoration - I wouldn't know where to start with the monoblocks I auditioned.

Anyone have any experience with either of these Leak or Quad amps? I have heard many times how the Quad IIs pair well with the ESL-57s so maybe I should opt for those - if I do would I need an active pre-amp or would I get away with a passive for now?


:)

[7_V]

Originally posted by Malc S
Anyone have any experience with either of these Leak or Quad amps? I have heard many times how the Quad IIs pair well with the ESL-57s so maybe I should opt for those - if I do would I need an active pre-amp or would I get away with a passive for now?:)
The Quads will set you back about £600, the Leak considerably less.

I've got a Stereo 20 that you can come and listen to (I will sell it if you like it). I'm only an hour away in Oxted. I have passive and active valve preamps so we could listen to both. The Leak is in good condition but has blown a capacitor. I'll fix it when I get back from the States at the end of September. Can you wait until then?

There's a guy I know who's a whizz at performing a slight mod that can move the Leak into a new dimension. I can give you his details if you're interested.

If you're using ESL-57s, you could also do worse than to choose a pair of Quads 22s in good condition.

BTW, I would advise you not to bother with the original Leak or Quad preamps. Maybe they could be modified to get up to modern audiophile standards but they ain't there now.

[Mal]

Originally posted by 7_V

The Quads will set you back about £600, the Leak considerably less.

I've got a Stereo 20 that you can come and listen to (I will sell it if you like it). I'm only an hour away in Oxted. I have passive and active valve preamps so we could listen to both. The Leak is in good condition but has blown a capacitor. I'll fix it when I get back from the States at the end of September. Can you wait until then?

There's a guy I know who's a whizz at performing a slight mod that can move the Leak into a new dimension. I can give you his details if you're interested.


Steve,

a Leak Stereo 20 audition would be great - I'll PM you....





If you're using ESL-57s, you could also do worse than to choose a pair of Quads 22s in good condition.

BTW, I would advise you not to bother with the original Leak or Quad preamps. Maybe they could be modified to get up to modern audiophile standards but they ain't there now.


I assume you meant Quad II and not Quad 22 which is the stereo pre-amp!

Do you have an opinion on the relative merits of the Leak Stereo 20 and the Quad II amps - are the Quads worth the extra cash?

:)

[7_V]

Originally posted by Malc S
I assume you meant Quad II and not Quad 22 which is the stereo pre-amp!

Do you have an opinion on the relative merits of the Leak Stereo 20 and the Quad II amps - are the Quads worth the extra cash?

:)
Yes, of course I meant II, not 22.

I do have some opinions but I think it comes down to personal preference. I believe that the Quads put out more power, the Leaks are very open and sweet. Both can be very good.

Steve