Can CDR's capture everything vinyl has to offer?

[Holy Zoo]

I asked a similiar question a few weeks back:

The topic is: comparing an original LP to a cdr recording of that LP.

I've only done one really careful comparison so far, recording an LP to CD using my shiny new Sony with SBM, then synching up the LP and the freshly recorded CDR, comparing back and forth. I tended to focus on one song (the first on the LP, since it's easy to get to that track repeatedly!).

The result of that one test is that I couldn't tell the difference between the original and the copy.

From this very limited sample size, at minimum I've walked away with the opinion that CDR copies can sound amazing! That's a good thing!

What I would like your candid opinion on is this: might there be something that I should be able to hear that I'm not? Or is it possible that CDs can capture everything on that LP - they can sound identical under the right circumstances, and I should stop obsessing? (-;

But, I'm not looking for an answer that makes me not obsess - rather it's that scientific part of me (which is a BIG part of my psyche, believe me) which loves double blind tests and trying to understand things that leads me to bring up this topic.

I guess its just one more step down the road to truth and beauty. :-)

[Steve Hoffman]

Well Jeff,

The TONALITY of your record vs. your CD-R of your record should be pretty darn close. If that is what you are listening for mainly, they should sound in the ballpark.

But, how revealing is your system? That I don't know. What are you using for a phono preamp, etc? Is it magic or just ok?

Example. I use a Jewel Electra two-part tube phono stage designed by Jud Barber that is quite magical sounding. Will most of this magic end up on my CD-R version? Some of it will for the most part, especially the above-mentioned tonality of the music. But in other ways the record must beat the CD-R copy every time, I mean, the LP is an "analog" in the true sense of the word. It should take the lead every time for depth, soundstage, realism, resolution and other "breath of life" goodies over the CD-R, but by HOW MUCH is up to your system's ability to RESOLVE!

[Grant]

Essentially, if it is a careful transfer, and done with quality gear, there should be no difference.

Steve, I don't know if you were speaking theoretically, but i'm just speaking from extensive experience. It is OK do silightly disagree with the forum administrator, isn't it?

[Angel]

So, Grant, are you saying that a compact disc and an LP of the same material should sound exactly the same?

Isn't that the exact opposite contention of every LP lover on the planet? :confused:

[Holy Zoo]

And also, of course, there is always that one wild card factor: a pair of good ears. Some have 'em, some don't. And I'm honestly not that convinced that mine are especially that great. Indeed, my brother (a recording engineer) seems to be able to single things out that I just can't hear. Sometimes he'll notice some slight distortion, and I'll go "huh? sounds good to me".

And unfortunatly, good ears is the one thing in audiophildom (is that a word?) that money won't buy.

Thanks Steve & Grant! This will egg me on to doing more extensive A/B testing.

[lukpac]

Here are my 2 cents:

If it sounds good to you, go with it. Isn't that what really matters?

[Paul L.]

There is a lot to be said for not having the most discriminating senses in the world. For example, if you don't notice when instruments are a little out of tune, you'll enjoy a lot more music than if hearing out of tune instruments drives you berserk.

Same thing goes for food or wine. If you are extremely picky, you're going to be unhappy most of the time and better be able to afford your own private chef.

I know plenty of musicians with fairly bad stereo systems. Since they hear live music all the time, you'd think they want decent stereos. But it's usually not the case. I think they just need certain musical cues from the recording, and they extrapolate from that what the music should sound like. That's my theory, anyway.

[John Carsell]

Originally posted by lukpac
Here are my 2 cents:

If it sounds good to you, go with it. Isn't that what really matters?

I'll drink to that. A perfect CD-R copy would be nice, but if it pleases my ears that's close enough for me.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Angel
So, Grant, are you saying that a compact disc and an LP of the same material should sound exactly the same?

Isn't that the exact opposite contention of every LP lover on the planet? :confused:

If the mastering of both is done well, that's exactly what I mean. They should sound the same. I believe Steve has said this as well. And, as far as i'm concerned, if one sounds very different than the other something is very wrong.

When I do my own transfers I strive to get things to sound like the vinyl. The vinyl is the reference only because it is my only reference. More often than not, the vinyl was taken from good tapes. I have CD-R transfers of LPs that kick the butt of the same material on CD-R. The vinyl has the "breath of life" and I transferred it to CD-R. In this case, the LP is Ray Parker Jr. "A Woman Needs Love". The 'live" cue is the vocal.

Vinyl isn't anything special, it's just that it was usually produced from better tapes with more care than your avarage CD. M y view is that 16-bit CD-R has the capacity to carry all that the average pop/rock/soul vinyl recording has.

[Dan]

A friend of mine did a transfer of the Amy Grant/Art Ganfunkle Christmas LP for someone during the holidays, and he and I were astounded by how good the CDR came out.

[Grant]

Sure! If your gear is up to the task, and you are using quality gear and software and have the skill to use it all, you should get excellent results. And, though I never used one, many standalone recorders also offer excellent A/D conversion.

If you are transferring LP you should get back what you put in.

All the disagreement you see on this forum about CD-R transfers is all good. We all have the same goal, just different views on how to get there. And, no two DAW or stereo setups are alike.

What matters most is your source and playback. If you don't have that to begin with you can't make quality transferrs.

[TimB]

Many seem to like LP over CD, and I for one do. So, what is it about cd's that is differnet? Resolution? Dynamics? What? Some say it is a pleaseing distortion, just as those who like Single Ended Triode amps say. Or is there something about digitizing that steralizes? I for one do not have answere, but I do like LP's that have been burned onto a CD-R as opposed to most (but not all) CD's. Who knows, maybe I am just distorted!:p

[Grant]

TimB, i'm with you in that I enjoy LPs burned to CD-R. As I stated before, 16-bit digital has what it takes to preserve what your avarage LP has to offer.

The reason so many comnmercial CDs sound worse is because of the tapes/equipment used, and the whims of the masteing and/or transfer engineer.

I enjoy my CD-Rs made from Lps more than anything.

CD and LP should sound the same if both are mastered with care from the same source.

[Krink]

I agree CD-R's burned from an Lp source will sound better than your average CD! Lp's actually play music! Cd's emit sound. That is the reason vinyl is still as popular as it is. I think if records could affordably have a remote control to skip between songs, and play both sides without manually flipping the disc...CD's would be dead in the water!


Ray

[Edited out overly argumenative comments - HZ]

[Grant]

Originally posted by Krink
I agree CD-R's burned from an Lp source will sound better than your average CD...but let's get serious here! Lp's actually play music! Cd's emit sound.


Ray

Eh, correct me if i'm wrong, but vinyl playback creates vibrations that are turned into electrical impulses. CD playback creates electrical impulses via impulses of 0s and 1s.

[Humorem]

Originally posted by Grant

If the mastering of both is done well, that's exactly what I mean. They should sound the same. I believe Steve has said this as well.
Steve said no such thing, at least earlier in this thread. He knows it's not true so he can't have said that. Read it again. Read the part about the system resolution.

Everything sounds the same at some level, at one end of the spectrum, and nothing sounds the same at the other end of that spectrum. Steve's system better be at the high end of that spectrum or he couldn't do what he does. Since he does it all day long, ipso facto, it is.

TP

[Grant]

OK, unless Steve wants to jump in here, I'll look for where he did state this. If I can just find it i'll repost it so you can see.

[Steve Hoffman]

TONALITY matches in the two formats, and if your system is working right as we have discussed, a DCC CD and DCC LP should match wonderfully well in that respect. Resolution and everything else will vary with your playback system components.

[TimM]

Vinyl is my first choice in most cases, but I don't think "popular' is

a very good word to use when talking about it. It accounts for a

very tiny fraction of music sales. The last figure I saw placed it at

under 2% of sales. I would also agree that a CDR made from an

LP is in many cases better than the commercial CD, which is very

sad indeed.

[lukpac]

Not to try and take sides here, but please don't bash things if you don't know what you're talking about. Saying you don't like the digital sound you've heard is one thing, but trying to say it's because everything is stored as 1's and 0's is another.

The simple fact is that the playback of a CD is analog. A continuous wave goes in, and a continuous wave comes out. It won't be *exactly* the same, but then again, what comes out of an LP isn't *exactly* the same as what goes in, either.

[Grant]

I know you didn't post to support anyone, but thank you, Luke.

[Humorem]

Grant,

I don't mean to offend. Really.

Steve is telling you, nicely, because that's his way, that you should hear all the differences he described.

You say you don't hear them. That doesn't mean they're not there.

It means one, both, or all three of the following:

Your equipment is not high enough resolution to show you these differences.

Or you don't listen critically enough.

Or you can't hear them.

I'm not perfect in this respect either, far from it.

Let me confess I shortcoming I have. Steve hears edits on the tapes that I just don't hear. He'll come over with some project he is working on and every once in awhile point out one, and I swear to you I can't hear it.

Now if you edit a lot of tape, and he has, you know EXACTLY what that sound is. It jumps out at him. I do not edit tape, and I can hear some edits, but not all.

It's training.

I do this all day every day and so does he. We get trained to listen for the differences, the nuances of sound. Over time we all get better at it. If our systems are up to it.

He's telling you there is a difference. So am I. Everybody I know is well aware of it.

Over time I believe you will learn to recognize more and more of the subtle losses that occur when you make CDRs. They may be better than store bought CDs, but they do not sound identical to the source. No way.

Here's a fun little experiment you can try at home. Everybody can play.

Get Joni Mitchell Blue, any version you like. If you have the DCC CD, more's the better.

Play the song A Case of You. Just before Joni starts to sing something happens. What?

I believe Steve first heard the effect over here. It certainly seemed like it came as a bit of a surprise to him. I had never heard it before. But, having made some major improvements at the time (battery power, baby!), I was hearing lots of things I never heard before.

This quote is instructive I think. It has everything to do with audio and the attitude we must show to our own--mine included--ignorance:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

--From Hamlet, Prince of Denmark - 1601 - Act I. - Scene 5. - Rows: 166-167

(Hamlet speaks these lines to his friend Horatio. The sentries who keep night watch over the castle at Elsinore have seen an
apparition of the ghost of the late king of Denmark, Hamlet's father. Although Horatio pleads with the ghost to speak to them, it
refuses and disappears at morning light. Horatio tells Hamlet about it the next night, believing that the ghost will only speak with
his son. Hamlet goes off with the ghost, where he learns that his father was murdered by his own brother, Claudius, who has
now taken the crown for himself. When Hamlet returns to Horatio, who expresses his bewilderment over the apparition, Hamlet
points out that ghosts speaking, and brothers murdering, and wives remarrying may exist outside the moral framework of the
average man...but that these things occur in the real world.)

I take it a few steps farther than even Steve wants to go. But I don't have master tapes to play so I have to!

Take your CDRs to some of the better stereo stores in your town. Watch the faces of the people who hear them. Are they beaming? Or frowning? Or unmoved? Let us know.

Steve's forum has one principle aim: to help you get more from the music you love. You may not think so, but that's my aim too. I just have a more blunt approach. If you don't like my advice, follow his. We're saying the same thing. He just doesn't like to argue as much as I do.

Regards,
TP

[Humorem]

Originally posted by lukpac
Saying you don't like the digital sound you've heard is one thing, but trying to say it's because everything is stored as 1's and 0's is another.


Right on!

Nobody knows why the technology works or doesn't work. Let your ears decide.

TP

[Paul L.]

Tom,

Your perception of quality is suspect to me ever since you criticized SACD, and said it was worse than CD.

There is just no question that SACD has more resolution than plain CD.

Okay, fine, we can disagree. But you are striving to set yourself up as some kind of authority. If we believed what you're implying, there are two people who know what good sound is in the world, Tom Port and Steve Hoffman. Nobody else is skilled enough or has good enough equipment.

Then you keep flipping back and forth from "trust your own ears, whatever makes you happy," et cetera, to this stuff where you act like we are ignoramuses in dire need of your wisdom and the only good opinion is the one that matches yours.

Here's the thing. We all have ears and we all know what pleases us and we all have different sound equipment. We all welcome other people's thoughts. But nobody has elected you as final arbiter.

[Grant]

Hi Humourem,

I really do think you underestimate what I can and can't hear, or what my experience with working with audio is. You do sound presumptive.

I can pick out things that no one else can on my equipment. Make no mistake, I am so critical of a listener that I drive people crazy. I have an engineer's mind and ear.