Sam Cooke CDs

[lukpac]

Anyone out there know of the best sounding Sam Cooke CDs? This past weekend I picked up "Keep Movin' On" on ABKCO and "Greatest Hits" on RCA. I have yet to listen to either of them critically, but Greatest Hits seems a tad clouded - not bad sounding, but Sam's vocals don't quite cut through things (ie, no breath of life).

A brief listen of the ABKCO CD seemed to reveal a decent recording, although again, I haven't had much of a chance to listen...

Anyone?

[CM Wolff]

I've been in a Sam Cooke mood lately and really like the new 'Movin'. At the time, the box set The Man Who Invented Soul seemed to get great reviews for its improved sound but got nicked for not being able to include the Tracey material that is now found on Movin'. I don't have the box but I think I am going to pick it up in the next day or two. I will eventually post my findings. If anyone else has a response to Luke's message, I would love to hear thoughts before I spring for the box.

[Angel]

Steve had mentioned a while back that the ORIGINAL stereo mixes of the Sam Cooke stuff were awful, but the mono versions were quite amazing. Of course, no one has thought to release THOSE versions. Oh well.:(

[Matt]

Well, according to the producer of the RCA box, he used stereo because everyone seems to want stereo. You can't blame people, though. I don't think many people have a good recollection of what the mono Cooke's sound like compared to the stereo mixes, and very few probably know how both were prepared. At the very least, they should have remixed the stereo versions without the compression, but it's doubtful they would have done it with the same "magic" most great stereo recordings have back then (dump it on a digital workstation, apply some NR to each track, etc.)

[CM Wolff]

Well, I went out and picked up The Man Who Invented Soul and have been skipping around for the last couple of hours. The sound definitely puts the Man and His Music to shame. A haze that was covered that album is gone. I am definitely not the audiophile that many are on this board, but I will take the claim that the box used better masters at face value. Also, I didn't grow up on Sam Cooke, so I will leave all decisions as to replicating the original sound from way back then to someone to whom that matters - the emotion and silky grit of Cooke's voice shine through quite nicely.

[Steve Hoffman]

Had to have been remixed then. Haven't heard it yet...

[Mal]

"The Man and His Music" sounded pretty terrible, I seem to remember. Didn't Rick Rowe screw that one up (like he did with that Elvis Sun material a few years back)?

Presumably "The Man Who Invented Soul" could sound better without it having to be a remix (he said hopefully :p). Does anyone know for sure?

[Steve Hoffman]

No. The bad stuff was right on the stereo mixes. They sound that way on all the original RCA-Victor stereo LP's too.

If the vocal on (let's say "Chain Gang") sounds like it ISN'T coming from a closed trash can, it's a remix. :)

[Mal]

Well, I'll just have to wait for the mono tapes to be released then (he said in denial :D).

[peterC]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
No. The bad stuff was right on the stereo mixes. They sound that way on all the original RCA-Victor stereo LP's too.

If the vocal on (let's say "Chain Gang") sounds like it ISN'T coming from a closed trash can, it's a remix. :)

Just found this thread in the archives.
The box credits "audio restoration" to Bill Lacey (a familiar credit on many RCA rereleases). Sorry for my ignorance, but does this suggest a remix? The sound is startingly good and the vocals have plenty of presence (no trash cans!). Not quite Buddy Holly on True Love Ways but almost sounds like he's here in the room.

The Abkco single CD (Keep Movin' On) of the tracks not on the box set has a "restoration engineer". To my ears the sound is not quite up to the standard of the box.

[CM Wolff]

At the time of the earlier posts, I did a bunch of Google searches to see if I could find a definitive discussion as to Cooke remixes, but came up empty. From Steve's response, I am taking for granted that they are. However, from a listening standpoint, I have found the sound of the box to be wonderful; I have spent a lot of time with it since the original posts. At this point, to my ears, whether the box or "Movin'" are remixes doesn't concern me (call me a heathen). Unless I am somehow exposed something that sounds even better, these sound pretty definitive to me. :)

The box's producer responded in an Amazon review to other Amazon postings critical of the box in different ways (e.g. excluding the Tracey material contained on Movin' that was not legally available at the time) and challenged reviewers on the quality of the sound. Again, personally, I would choose the box over the Man and his Music any day of the week and agree with him in that the sound is a dramatic improvement.

[lukpac]

I only have the new Greatest Hits and Keep Movin On. My *guess* is that Greatest Hits uses the original mixes, as Chain Gang sounds kind of wonky, in particular. Some of the later stereo mixes sound better (as do the pre-RCA stereo tracks), but they sound like original mixes to me...

It would seem at least some tracks on Keep Moving On are remixed, although I don't have anything to compare them to. Tracks like Good News have a slightly modern sound to them - while the horns are mixed hard right (I believe), the rhythm track is mixed left-center, which would seem odd for an original mix (I would think it would be hard left). That track is in mono on The Man And His Music, so...

Other tracks on Keep Moving On sound like they could be original mixes, though. Like I said, I just don't have anything to compare these new CDs to, so...

[Mitch Kaufman]

Recently I nominated The Man Who Invented Soul as one of the best regular-issue CDs ever; since then I've gotten a new and improved CD player, and now I'm not so sure.

On the plus side, the high frequencies all seem to be in place--audible tape hiss, most evident on the early Keen material, especially some of the monos--and the sound is generally open and free of digital harshness.

On the debit side, everything sounds a little thin due to a lack of low-mid's and lows. In other words, a little lighter and brighter than ideal. Some of the original Cooke recordings are luscious; I've got an old, original Living Stereo vinyl of "Cooke's Tour" (no cuts included in the box set) which sounds lush and gorgeous beyond belief. None of that here.

Mostly, though, it decimates previous issues in terms of sound, and of course content. Some of the Keen sides have what sounds like edge warp or tape slippage (highs fading in and out), but I can live with it. Others of the RCA's (especially the cuts from "My Kind of Blues"--from which they included way too much, IMO) can sound a bit thin and brittle. And of course there's the missing material, which obviously was a legal, not artistic decision.

While there's too much of Sam's supper club repertoire to satisfy me (and did we really need another issue of the Harlem Square Club performance, in which he's in terrible voice?), what there is on this set that's great is simply magnificent beyond words: two completely different versions of "Tenderness," each a masterpiece; the tremendous studio version of "Feel It;" the epochal "Frankie and Johnny," and the list goes on.

I'm not wild about the packaging--the kind of box that always seems to fall apart--and the notes leave something to be desired. But in the here and now (and the foreseeable future), this is it for Sam Cooke on RCA. Not a sonic masterpiece, but very, very good, and a must-buy for all the above reasons.

MK

[jligon]

Originally posted by Mitch Kaufman

I'm not wild about the packaging--the kind of box that always seems to fall apart--and the notes leave something to be desired. But in the here and now (and the foreseeable future), this is it for Sam Cooke on RCA. Not a sonic masterpiece, but very, very good, and a must-buy for all the above reasons.

MK

Do the CDs have individual jewel cases in this box set?

[Matt]

No, they don't. It's one of those longish, wallet deals that fold open and close, with digipak-type trays glued to the insides.

[lukpac]

Ok, thanks to my buddy David Modny, I've been able to compare 3 different versions of Another Saturday Night: from The Man And His Music, Greatest Hits (the original 22 song issue), and Keep Movin On. Here's what I think:

- the version on The Man and His Music sounds like some type of strange '80s remix. The vocals are centered, as is the main backing track (more or less). However, the track with the horns is spread out ever so slightly with some delay. Sounds pretty bad...

- the version on Greatest His sounds like the original mix to me. Very wide stereo mix (main backing right, horns and backing vocals left) with that funky "lots of midrange" EQ.

- I believe the version on Keep Movin On is a new remix, and it kind of sounds like it. The backing track is panned in *ever* so slightly, and the overall sound is more open - catch the opening drum fill. A more modern sound on the EQ front. Fewer mids, more high end. Slightly harsher/harder. The vocal isn't as loud as the GH version.

Does Greatest Hits use the same mixes as the box set? If so, it's my feeling that the box is NOT remixed, as GH sure doesn't sound like it. I mean, it doesn't sound bad by any means, but it does have that "clouded" sound on a lot of stuff, especially Sam's vocals. Keep Movin On, on the other hand, *does* sound remixed.

Now, back to The Man and His Music. ASN is just *strange* on there. Not very good fidelity-wise, and the stereo positioning is just bizarre. It also fades out way too early. Win Your Love For Me is also really strange. While it's mono on Greatest Hits, it *almost* sounds like fake stereo on TMAHM. However, while the backing sounds very spread out (like fake stereo), the vocal is centered (moreso anyway). However, the vocal "wavers" in places. Is this just a very convincing fake stereo job, or did they take (perhaps) a two-track source and add some processing to it? That guitar does seem to come from a distinct position in the stereo spectrum. Although, the bongos seem to be coming from the left slightly, and the guitar from the right slightly. Are my ears being fooled?

[peterC]

Luke, if you haven't got it already get the box set and rest easy in the knowledge that with the box set and Keep Movin' On you have the best and best sounding compilation of Sam's pop years you're ever likely to have.

The box is excellent in every respect.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by peter castanos
Luke, if you haven't got it already get the box set and rest easy in the knowledge that with the box set and Keep Movin' On you have the best and best sounding compilation of Sam's pop years you're ever likely to have.

The box is excellent in every respect.

Well, Keep Movin' On is obviously taken from good sources and is very clean, but it does sound a tad sterile...

I haven't heard the box set, but doesn't it use the same masters as Greatest Hits? Or am I mistaken?

[Matt]

It never occurred to me that "Man and His Music" could be a remix. I just compared "Chain Gang" on both, and the vocals sound like absolut s*** on "Man and His Music." It comes through louder and clearer on the box set, and there's something about the sound that made me think it was a digital remix (the vocals aren't that lifelike, despite the sonic improvement; possibly compressed but not as much as the original stereo mix?). I figured the "Man and His Music" sound came from the original, poor mix, but I also thought that it was possible the sound could've also resulted from a bad dub tape or just bad mastering (with further bad EQ).

[John Oteri]

Nothing was remixed on the original "Man And His Music" CD; I asked when it came out. Nothing could sound that bad--remix or not.

Have not heard any newer Sam Cooke stuff, but boy some of the versions on that old CD really bite, sound wise, don't they?

[peterC]

Originally posted by lukpac

I haven't heard the box set, but doesn't it use the same masters as Greatest Hits? Or am I mistaken?


You would think so, but there are some differences. I commented on one of these in an amazon.com review of the box and also at BSN:
Win Your Love For Me is stereo on the box but fades early.
It's mono on Greatest Hits and longer.
It's stereo on Man and His Music and same length as on greatest hits.

Anyway, itstill sounds great.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by peter castanos
Win Your Love For Me is stereo on the box but fades early.
It's mono on Greatest Hits and longer.
It's stereo on Man and His Music and same length as on greatest hits.

Anyway, itstill sounds great.

What does the stereo sound like on the box? On TMAHM it's not very distinct.

Has Wonderful World ever been issued in stereo? Somebody told me it has.

If Another Saturday Night wasn't remixed for TMAHM, then there was at least some *major* post-processing on the stereo mix. There's no way a stereo mix from 1963 would sound like it does on that disc, with an almost mono sound. The mix on Greatest Hits sounds like how a stereo mix from that era would sound, a distinct 3-track sound.

[Pat]

I remember a little bit of something that I read back when The Man And His Music originally came out...might have been in Goldmine or some other music magazine. I think it was Rick Rowe speaking (perhaps Gregg Geller?,dunno). It was mostly in reference to Elvis Presley: The Top Ten Hits, from about the same time period! He said that the technology at the time 1986/87 allowed him to "create" what he thought was a better sound than what was originally recorded, or redo a problem area on "old" tapes to make something perfect (in his opinion!). He really was a tinkerer to the extreme.

Listen to Elvis Presley: The Top Ten Hits (2CD) or The Number Ones (single CD) that Rowe/Geller did during this time. Same "unreal" sound as The Sam Cooke CD (TMAHM).

Don't know if he did this on Sam Cooke's CD, but on the Presley disc(s), he used "numerous" takes to get his ultimate version of each song. He even mentioned that the technology allowed him to make a song that never existed in the first place! He said that he would (digitally) snip and put together sounds from the performer to lengthen words, sustain instrumental endings to songs, etc.

I just put on TMAHM CD and I really don't enjoy this very much anymore...totally unnatural. Back then, I thought this was really revolutionary stuff...CDs being still NEW to me! I should have just listened to the "good" vinyl LPs I had (to compare)!

I don't see Rick Rowe or Gregg Geller's names much anymore, so maybe they were run out of town! No big loss I say!

TMAHM really has NO "feel" of the time (50s & 60s). They have made stereo into "near mono" in many cases! Maybe I need to hear some other releases to eventually update my collection!

[Mitch Kaufman]

If you want to fall off your chair, compare "You Send Me" on TMAHM and the box set. On the old disc is has no highs and sounds like it was dubbed off vinyl. The box set transfer is beautiful.

"Another Saturday Night" on the box set is an alternate take, BTW.

MK

[peterC]

Originally posted by lukpac


What does the stereo sound like on the box? On TMAHM it's not very distinct.

Has Wonderful World ever been issued in stereo? Somebody told me it has.

If Another Saturday Night wasn't remixed for TMAHM, then there was at least some *major* post-processing on the stereo mix. There's no way a stereo mix from 1963 would sound like it does on that disc, with an almost mono sound. The mix on Greatest Hits sounds like how a stereo mix from that era would sound, a distinct 3-track sound.

1. Very wide. Vocals centered for the most part.

2.It's mono on the box.

3.The alternative version on the box and the released version on Keep Movin' On sound very similar stereo wise.


LUKE, JUST GET THE BOX!! It's great!