Buying premium speaker cables when you don't believe in them. Need help!!!

[fjhuerta]

Hello all,

Well, the time has come. I already sampled a couple of speaker cables from my dealer. I must now commit to buying something.

He loaned me a set of Monster Cable 11GA, 12GA, and some zip cord for comparison.

Quite frankly, I didn't hear much of an improvement. If any. I might have heard a bit more detail with the 11GA, but then again, it could have been me trying to think I was.

I told this to my dealer. He told me Monster Cable isn't that good, but that was all he could lend me at the time.

He told me I could start "on the cheap" by buying some AudioQuest Type 2 cable ($70 USD for a pair of 10 feet cables, terminated with bananas) - "That's the point where you'll start hearing a difference", he said. He can't lend it to me, though - the store manager wouldn't let him.

I already saw the specs for the cable. 16GA solid core copper. That sounds a bit... thin. Considering I own electrostatics, I am wondering whether buying the AudioQuests would be a step up or down compared to what I'm currently using (2 14GA strands of flat RadioShack speaker wire per speaker).

Any opinions on AudioQuest? Will it be worth my investment???

Thanks for your help!!!

[Steve Hoffman]

You own electrostatics?

Stick with Monster or Zip. Save $$.

[fjhuerta]

Hi Steve!

Are you serious??? I'd have thought electrostatics needed something better than zip or Monster... or is it that, since they are so current-hungry, a smaller gauge wire would be a better choice than a thinner, yet more expensive one?

[Damián]

Originally posted by fjhuerta
Well, the time has come. I already sampled a couple of speaker cables from my dealer. I must now commit to buying something.



Javier,

Not long ago someone posted a link to a site on DIY CAT5 (network wire) speaker cables. I did a Google search and came up with the one below, perhaps you'd like to check it out?

http://www.geocities.com/venhaus1/diycatfivecables.html

Saludos,

Damián

[Steve Hoffman]

Look, I had a pair of Maggies. The only wire that worked was regular Monster. Everything else was too grainy.

Finally had to sell the Maggies. I couldn't drive them with any tube amps and all the solid state amps I tried sounded like sucked out lemons in comparison.

[fjhuerta]

Heh. Steve, one of the things I have to do before I die is driving my electrostats with a good, powerful tube amp. I'm thinking Margules Audio, though I'll have to wait a bit before being able to afford one... (last time I saw it, it retailed for some $8K). Thanks for the help on speaker wires - I guess there's a point where "too detailed" is simply too much. Still, I think I'll get a pair of Grovers - just to take out the interconnects from the overall cable & wire equation. :D

Damián, me leíste la mente! I had been thinking about doing a speaker cable out of Cat5 wires. They have been recommended time and time again. I have lots of spools just laying around, so I guess I just have to make some free time, and start having fun! Thanks for the link - it DEFINITELY looks like something fun to do.

[AudioEnz]

Originally posted by fjhuerta
He loaned me a set of Monster Cable 11GA, 12GA, and some zip cord for comparison.

Quite frankly, I didn't hear much of an improvement. If any. I might have heard a bit more detail with the 11GA, but then again, it could have been me trying to think I was.

My standard audio recommendation: if you don't hear an improvement, then don't buy.

He can't lend it to me, though - the store manager wouldn't let him.

If you'd like to try some cables, try another store. Cables are high margin business. Here in New Zealand many dealer loan out cables, because they know there's a good chance a cheque will come back instead of the cable. Try and find a store that's willing to loan you some cables.

[Taurus]

Later this year for all five of my speakers:

Ratshak 12 gauge "Megacable" (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=278%2D1268)

This is part of the reason for this choice:

"Gordon Gow's Speaker Wire Listening Test" (http://home.earthlink.net/~rogerr7/wire.htm#gordongow) (Gordon Gow worked for McIntosh)

And a critical quote from the above article: "Realizing that wire resistance was the critical factor in speaker wire,........."

No more comments from me concerning this particular forum minefield!!! :D

[T]

[fjhuerta]

Heh. I'm using that same Megacable right now (considering I'm using two strands of 14GA MegaCable). :D

[Sckott]

Solid strand, copper for electrostatics, either what you have, monster or SOME DIY, not all.

I have a pair of Acoustat 3's. They're monsters. Makes my bed look small.

[fjhuerta]

Oops. Sckott - sorry. I can't understand what you just said (most probably because I'm not a native speaker - again, I'm very sorry).

Did you mean to say I should use a cable made up of solid strands of copper?

a) Monster cable - OK?
b) What I'm using - OK?
c) Some DIY - not all? I don't get it. Does this mean I should or should not go the DIY route?

I'm even more :confused: than usual. Sorry about that! :D

I was thinking about building the Cat5 cables with banana terminators. Seems like a nice enough project... and the final look might be kinda cool.

[Sckott]

No, no, no... NOT FOR ELECTROSTATICS yer not! (knot) Cat5 can have quite a capacitance and it's not going to give you good imaging at all. Do all that work for the braiding, and it's going to suck the life out of the picture.

Use strand copper, and yes, 14 gauge is PLENT-Y! You can use Monster or the Radio Shack. Something straight forward and easy.

[fjhuerta]

GREAT!!!! I can have nice sound for cheap! YAY! :D Thanks for clearing up my confusion, Sckott! I guess the AudioQuest 16Ga is not worth it (not at $70 per 10 feet, when I can get the MegaCable 14GA for $20 per 50 feet...)

Thanks for your patience. I'll now try to find out what capacitance does for a cable... again, I'm learning a lot from all of you. Thanks a lot. :)

I still loved the look of that CAT5 speaker cable, though. It just looks cool. I guess I'll build two 27 strands for my parents' JBL system.

[Sckott]

Braids of Cat5: Works better for interconnects, and I've done about 30' of it in my life.

But not for electrostatics. Most need lots of power. Give it braided Cat5, and it will be like a signal going uphill. :(

I'm using a 14 (or 16?) g Radio Shack white. Nothing ever sounded better. Like Steve said, one or two cable types will work well for Electrostatic speakers. Go fancy, and the sound goes dumpy.

[krabapple]

Originally posted by fjhuerta
Hello all,

Well, the time has come. I already sampled a couple of speaker cables from my dealer. I must now commit to buying something.

He loaned me a set of Monster Cable 11GA, 12GA, and some zip cord for comparison.

Quite frankly, I didn't hear much of an improvement. If any. I might have heard a bit more detail with the 11GA, but then again, it could have been me trying to think I was.

I told this to my dealer. He told me Monster Cable isn't that good, but that was all he could lend me at the time.

He told me I could start "on the cheap" by buying some AudioQuest Type 2 cable ($70 USD for a pair of 10 feet cables, terminated with bananas) - "That's the point where you'll start hearing a difference", he said. He can't lend it to me, though - the store manager wouldn't let him.

I already saw the specs for the cable. 16GA solid core copper. That sounds a bit... thin. Considering I own electrostatics, I am wondering whether buying the AudioQuests would be a step up or down compared to what I'm currently using (2 14GA strands of flat RadioShack speaker wire per speaker).

Any opinions on AudioQuest? Will it be worth my investment???

Thanks for your help!!!

If you don't 'believe' in cables, what makes you think any of these will make a real difference? Consider the possibility that your failure to hear much of a difference between the ones you've tried could simply mean...there isn't much (or ANY) audible difference between them. That's what all the science and engineering practice (outside of the strange world of audiophilia) suggests is the case. You'd have to mismatch the cables fairly robustly in lenght or diameter or other basic characteristic to get an audible difference with musical material. Cheap 14 g might actually sound different from expensive 16 g on a long wire run...that is, the 14 g would likely sound *better*.

I want to save you lots and lots of money. Here's my suggestion. Stick with the Radio Shack stuff, and simply clean the contacts points occasionally. It's likely they're perfectly fine, and your urge to replace them is simply typical 'upgrade itch' that affects all hobbyists. It's not rational. Keep repeating that to yourself. (Your dealer is not likely to agree, however. Cables have a fantastic markup value after all.)

If you simply *must* do something to make an audible difference, and possibly an improvement, then try moving your speakers around, or indulging in some cheap room treatments.

[Steve Hoffman]

Krab, come clean, the only person on this forum who can't hear any difference in different types of wire is you. Does this mean that all wire is the same or just that you can't hear?

Please, the Flat Earth Forum needs you. This one doesn't!

[Holy Zoo]

ARG! Krabby, you're heading right into Subj vs. Objectivist again. Haven't we had this discussion before? It is VERBOTEN! :)

Please Read (again):

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11234

[RDK]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Krab, come clean, the only person on this forum who can't hear any difference in different types of wire is you. Does this mean that all wire is the same or just that you can't hear?


Well, to be fair to Krab, I have yet to hear any significant differences between cables and wires either - though I don't play that game too often. ;)

I attribute it less to the "fact" that there are no differences between different wires than to my ears not being very sharp. That and my firm belief that there are so many other things I could tweak or upgrade that would make a more audible difference in my system.

(How's that for neutrality on the issue?)

[Gary]

Hmmm. I'm one of those guys who do hear a difference in cables. I've tried about three different cables and they all sound different.

Each to his own! :)

[RDK]

I think, Gary, even if I were to hear a difference, I would have a hell of a time deciding which "sound" I liked better. These subjective tests are always a problem for me since, unless the differences are great, I can never make up my mind about what I like better.

But give me two numbers to add up and I've got no problem. Objectivity I can handle. ;)

[WVK]

Has anyone explored the reason why cables sound different? Can the physical properties be measured i.e resistance, capacitance (is there anything else)? Can two cables measure the same but sound different?

WVK

[fjhuerta]

WVK, in Robert Harley's Guide to High End Audio, it is explained that cables sound different because of their grain structure.

I have always thought "a wire is a wire", but having studied engineering, I now realize the grain structure theory & other factors (the skin principle) really could affect energy transmission.

I'd think their effects would not be as notorious (or even exist) in digital sound transmission, but in an analogue set-up things would be different.

[krabapple]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Krab, come clean, the only person on this forum who can't hear any difference in different types of wire is you. Does this mean that all wire is the same or just that you can't hear?

1) I didn't say all wires sound the same. In fact, I pointed out a condition where two wires might *not* sound the same.
2) By this forum, do you mean this thread, or all of SH.TV? In any case, since when does the sheer *number* of believers make their belief true?
History is full of large groups of people sincerely believing dubious things, after all.

Please, the Flat Earth Forum needs you. This one doesn't!

Hmm, anyone else would get gorted for being this unfriendly, methinks.

Anyway, the person who started the thread, asked for help. I don't recall that he said 'only people who believe in differences should reply'. I gave him a reasonable, friendly, and sincere, reply that *I* believe is far and away the most helpful so far.

[krabapple]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
[B]ARG! Krabby, you're heading right into Subj vs. Objectivist again. Haven't we had this discussion before? It is VERBOTEN! :)


It appears to me that THE THREAD TITLE itself heads right into 'subj vs. Obj. IF a thread which references the idea of 'belief' in cables in its very title, is not allowed to broach the *possibility* that belief plays a role in 'hearing' differences (whcih I did obliquely at best), then what is?

[Claviusb]

Do not post again to this thread, Krabapple.