Questions about my Marantz SA8003 CD/SACD player

[Jim in Houston]

Hi I just bought the new Marantz SA8003 and I am in heaven listening to CDs for the first time in years. SACDs also sound much better than on the Integra DPC 8.5 universal. But most of all I'm enjoying the USB interface with my 160gig Classic iPod.

This is where I have questions. Right off the bat, between the time I orderd it and received it, I read reviews that said it would not play Apple Lossless files since they are not specifically listed in the users manual. I even emailed Marantz and they told me it wouldn't. Well, I can state for the record that the SA8003 will play Apple Lossless files.

Next, there is one guy out there trashing this player with the exact same review on head-fi and ecoustics and others. His main complaint is that the mechanism is noisy. I can hear mine spin up but after that it's dead quite.

But my main concern is this review: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0109/marantz_sa8003.htm

Don't Buy A Porsche For The Cup Holder
...and don’t buy the SA8003 for the USB input. It works okay, probably as well as the cup holder in Porsche, but has enough issues to make it a more of an afterthought feature than a main event.

The USB input is powered by an NEC uPD63901 microcontroller (designed for use in car audio head units), and it enables the SA8003 to play MP3, WAV, WMA and AAC files directly off a USB hard drive, pen drive, or iPod (it does not function as a USB DAC, as connecting a laptop to the Marantz with a USB cable does nothing). The uPD63901 does its own D/A conversion, so files read from the USB input completely bypass Marantz' CS4398-based digital section (and cannot be output via the Marantz digital outputs). The USB signal still benefits from going through the SA8003's discreet analog output stage, but overall the USB sound is not quite up to par with what the SA8003 does when playing a shiny disc. Of course, this hardly matters unless you are using full-resolution WAV files, the only lossless format playable on the Marantz.

A more significant misfire is the user interface. Devices connected to the SA8003 via USB can only be browsed one line at a time on the Marantz' front panel display. This works well enough for a flash-ROM based pen drive with a few files on it, but it all but eliminated the convenience and joy of using my 60GB iPod. Only about one-third full, my iPod has over 180 artists on it... listening to one near the middle of the list required as many as 90 clicks on one of the Marantz' "folder" buttons, a significantly more cumbersome process than the iPod's own interface, which is disabled when connected to the SA8003.

Now i've listened to my iPod through this unit for hours on end which is something I don't even do with CDs, let alone my iPod (when connected to an iPod dock) and I'm astounded with the sound. I've heard things I've never heard before and experienced no fatique even with the Zeppelin remasters. I don't see how this statement can be true: The USB input is powered by an NEC uPD63901 microcontroller (designed for use in car audio head units), and it enables the SA8003 to play MP3, WAV, WMA and AAC files directly off a USB hard drive, pen drive, or iPod (it does not function as a USB DAC, as connecting a laptop to the Marantz with a USB cable does nothing). The uPD63901 does its own D/A conversion, so files read from the USB input completely bypass Marantz' CS4398-based digital section

That just seems completely wrong, doesn't the controller only allow access to the files and then the DAC converts them? The whole point of the Better quality DAC is to bypass the digital out.

Then: The USB signal still benefits from going through the SA8003's discreet analog output stage, but overall the USB sound is not quite up to par with what the SA8003 does when playing a shiny disc. Of course, this hardly matters unless you are using full-resolution WAV files, the only lossless format playable on the Marantz.
Again, this is not true because I am playing ALAC files and can hear no degradation from the CD.

And then: Only about one-third full, my iPod has over 180 artists on it... listening to one near the middle of the list required as many as 90 clicks on one of the Marantz' "folder" buttons, a significantly more cumbersome process than the iPod's own interface, which is disabled when connected to the SA8003. Yes, the iPod controls are diabled and can only be controlled by the Marantz remote but if this guy had read the manual he'd have known you can go to artist 90 by pressing 9-0-enter.

So I have no confidence in this review but would like a definitive answer on whether the lossless files are converted by the CS4398 DAC or not. the Manual says that the files are transfered as LPCM, doesn't that mean as bit stream to be decoded by the DAC?

This review is being quoted all over the net and may prevent someone from considering it if there is not a solid answer.

Thanks

[Tony Plachy]

Jim, There is a place in the top of the review where you can email the reviewer. Why not send him an email (a nice one that does not start with butt head :D) and ask him how he got his information on how the USB files are handled. Do remember that the usual DAC's that are used in CD (or SACD) players are setup to accept data that has come of off a CD and not a hard drive. I do not have an ipod so I am not sure what file types are on the HD, but the data output of a CD or SACD is standardize to one and only one type, where as I think you can do several different file types on an ipod. This may be why the players main DAC is not used for the USB port.

[Jim in Houston]

Thanks Tony,

Emailed Marantz today, waiting for a reply. I don't even know how much stock I can put in Marantz's answer since they told me it would not play ALAC files and it certainly does.

Will email the reviewer soon.

[Baron Von Talbot]

Take this with a grin, you enjoy the player more than the reviewer - so that is much better than vice versa , right ?

[Jim in Houston]

you are correct Baron Von T, a bad review will not spoil my enjoyment of the player, however, I have seen this review cited as fact and it may, and most certainly has, skewered others opinions already. And if I want to defend the player or contest the information in the article I want to know the facts, not spread equally unfounded information.

To me it's as if I got a Hi-Fi quality CD player, an SACD player, a wadia and a DAC all in one and all for well under a grand. I was pretty hyped to be able to reccomend this player but without proper doccumentation I'm less inclined to do so.

[therockman]

Thanks Tony,

Emailed Marantz today, waiting for a reply. I don't even know how much stock I can put in Marantz's answer since they told me it would not play ALAC files and it certainly does.

Will email the reviewer soon.




Why don't you just call Marantz? Everytime I call, I usually get one of the engineers that help design the unit. It is easier, and then you can call him butthead in real time.

[Baron Von Talbot]

Well, what do you expect from a eviwer of that kind ? You could send me a Cd palyer adn get about as much value on iformation as with that guy...

How n earth Marantz felt it a necesity to drop the uya CD Player fro a Grand is beyond me- That is even worse than whathifi.com..LOL

The rating stye is a joke. He don't even got a lab and has sectons for 10-30 hetz and then 30 to 60 hertz ? Crazy !!

Room treatments = oversized sofa - well i got one oversized and one medium sized... I could p myself laughing ..

But ev he is thrilled about the performance and you got a good one.
I never heard of real upsamping of external sources on that model, if you want that you should get NAD's new C 365BE...

Anyway - my V-DAC does only deliver USB Files in 48.000 kbits not 192.00 (nly with SPDIFF ), but I enjoy their sound a lot, too.
After all It is the tonal sound I crave, not the details..

[PMC7027]

Are you sure that the data being sent out the USB isn't the "bits" after the Apple lossless file is expanded? Since Apple Lossless is a proprietary format the iPod may not be exporting its data directly.

[Jim in Houston]

I just received a nice detailed response from Clarke Robinson, the reviewer from enjoythemusic.com:

2. The information about the USB input bypassing the unit's digital section I obtained by taking the unit apart and investigating the circuit myself. The UPD63901 is on a small board near the front panel of the unit (and it has a crystal oscillator on it, which it wouldn't need if it weren't doing D/A conversion). There is a single ribbon cable out of the USB board that leads directly to the unit's analog section.
That's why you can't output USB to the digital outputs...the USB signal never touches the SA8003's digital circuitry.

and then this from Marantz:

Customer (James Hamilton) - 04/16/2009 10:09 AM
when using an iPod with the SA8003 are the files decoded by the Cirrus CS4398 DAC or by the NEC uPD63901 microcontroller?

Response (Ean Levy) - 04/20/2009 11:38 AM
It is decoded by the Cirrus CS4398 DAC.

so... take your pick.

[jim tavegia]

Here is an answer from Marantz:

Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Ean Levy) - 04/20/2009 01:08 PM
If a 5th generation or later iPod, iPod nano, iPod
classic or iPod touch is connected, it can be
played with even higher sound quality because
the audio from the iPod is transmitted digitally
(LPCM).

LPCM from iPOD is decoded by main processor.

Earlier iPOD audio is transmitted analog and passed through the main
processor.

[Jim in Houston]

Thanks Jim,

My iPod is a 6th Gen 160 gig Classic. The top paragraph is from the SA8003 manual, But Marantz seems to be being purposfully vauge.

The main reason I am trying to find out is see how this unit stacks up against the Wadis iTransport. With th Wadia, for $379, you get no controller and no DAC. For less than 2x that I got a CD player, the SACD player, the DAC and the Controller.

I would think others would be interested in this as an alternative to the Wadia but I couldn't reccomend it without knowing the answers.

BTW, where is this "Discussion Thread" on the Marantz site?

Thanks

[Baron Von Talbot]

Checked out the in depth reviews of the Marantz SACD 8003 and the PM 8003 amp combination -both items were parts of a group test with Roksan Kandy II amp + CD Player and Vincent's HDCD Player S1.1 and their new solid state amp for 1200 Euros. The Vincent amp was the most expensive item and the Marantz SACD player was the cheapest in this group with items costing an average of 1 grand a piece or 2 grand as a combination.
Astonishingly the Marantz SACD player won this contest for CD players and the Roksan and Vincent amps both got a Stereoplay Highlight rating...

Anyway -
The CDs sound must be lovely and the SACD sound even better - USB input can even be organized via remote and got a thumbs up; but again it is not upsampling the signal as let's say the Musical Fidelity A 1 amp does with it's inbuilt USB DAC connection - since it is intended to be used with an iPod it can work with all iTunes datas, such as AIFF AAC or ALAC.... I am sure the soundquality is nice, since the signal gets a whole round trip along the Marantz digital/analog stage, but afaik the signal gets passed thru like that in 16 bit / 44.100 kits and is not upsampled along the way ...I doublechecked any info about this in the Stereoplay review - but if it would (upsample) Marantz and Stereoplay both would highlight this feature !

Still one of the best sub 1 K SACD players out there and definitely the best looking out of the bunch ....

I will search if I find a link to the test on the web

[Baron Von Talbot]

Here you go . http://www.stereoplay.de/Testbericht/Marantz-PM-8003_5183700.html

ooops that was the amp - here is the SACD 8003 , which got much better ratings than the amp - you can compare your CD player with a whole heap of others by the way - this is the one !

http://www.stereoplay.de/Testbericht/Marantz-SA-8003_5183664.html

[jim tavegia]

It was not a discussion thread. I simply wrote their tech dept off the web site. I was expecting more of an answer, the person that wrote back may not be tech savy or even care about high end audio.

What is clear that every generation of portable device has some unique characteristic that alters the digital or analog output that the mfg may think is an improvement, but often is not. Usually new and improved means: "We've found a way to make it cheaper" and were not telling you it is LESS, not more".

[Jan Kokx]

I bought a SA8003 myself and was also interested whether playing via USB bypasses the CS4398 (which a reviewer says) or is handled by the CS4398 (like Marantz says) the same way that a CD-signal is handled.
To answer the question, I have studied the repair-manual which contains schematic diagrams and pictures of the circuit-boards of the SA8003.
The conclusion is without any doubt: the USB-circuit (necuPD63901) only does the file-reading. The LPCM-signal form that IC is sent for The DA-conversion to the CD4398. So, when you have ripped a CD to uncompressed .WAV-files and put them on an USB-stick, you will hear the same sound-quality deliverd byu the CS4398 like playing the original CD.
This cannot be proven by only opening the casing because a lot of IC's are located on the bottom side. The CD4398 for example is located on the bottom side of the right circuit-board.
Enloy listening via USB!

[joannenugent]

I bought a SA8003 myself and was also interested whether playing via USB bypasses the CS4398 (which a reviewer says) or is handled by the CS4398 (like Marantz says) the same way that a CD-signal is handled.
To answer the question, I have studied the repair-manual which contains schematic diagrams and pictures of the circuit-boards of the SA8003.
The conclusion is without any doubt: the USB-circuit (necuPD63901) only does the file-reading. The LPCM-signal form that IC is sent for The DA-conversion to the CD4398. So, when you have ripped a CD to uncompressed .WAV-files and put them on an USB-stick, you will hear the same sound-quality deliverd byu the CS4398 like playing the original CD.
This cannot be proven by only opening the casing because a lot of IC's are located on the bottom side. The CD4398 for example is located on the bottom side of the right circuit-board.
Enloy listening via USB!

Thank you for the note!
I have been shopping for a SA8003 or SA8004 and this has been something on my mind. A lot of reviewers of the SA8004 swear that audio from the USB drive did not sound as good as audio through the coaxial digital input, so I was a little concerned. But I am glad to hear that it sounds like Marantz did the right thing with this!

[valvehead]

That's good to hear :righton:

I wonder if this is the same situation for the KI SA Pearl Lite which - I believe - is basically a Ken Ishiwata tweaked SA8003?

- John

[blackpizzadude]

I read that the Pearl Lite and SA8004 are the same unit. Badging is different.

[dbz]

I read that the Pearl Lite and SA8004 are the same unit. Badging is different.

well one has a solid copper base the other doesn't. The guts show that they are quite different, yet similar.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=7382591&postcount=86

[blackpizzadude]

The Pearl has a solid copper bottom. The Pearl Lite and SA8004 don't.

[dbz]

The Pearl has a solid copper bottom. The Pearl Lite and SA8004 don't.

The Pearl Lite is a designated K.I.model. Even though the back panel is painted black, it is still a copper chassis as you can see from the copper screws and highlights. Maybe the spec is different for the USA, but the UK one is copper.

[dbz]

compared to SA8004, from Marantz USA site, which has no copper plated chassis.

[blackpizzadude]

You are correct. What are the other differences? What is the link. Thanks.