SACD & DVD-A rant

[bartels76]

I thread about universal CD players got me thinking about this. Do you think that one of these competing formats is going to go away? Like when Betamax lost the war with VHS tapes? I love that SACD can be hybrid but DVD-A seems more stable since DVD's will be around for quite a while. Why can't DVD's be hybrid? They can put a man on the moon but they can't make DVD's play in standard CD players w/o paying an arm & leg? I really don't want to fork out $$ for a SACD player if they are going to go by the wayside and lose the format war. It's silly that the industry hasn't agreed on a standard hi-fi format and it's silly that you have to pay thousands of dollars to buy a player that plays all these different formats. I won't bother until the universal players are a reasonable price or a format finally wins out in the end. I don't want SACD's or DVD-A's to be useless in a few years like mini-discs are.

Just my 2 cents....

[Cliff]

I bought the top of the line Sony ES DVD Player, which also plays SACDs. Otherwise, I might not have bought one for quite a while myself. In my observation, SACDs are more welcome with audiophiles, but DVD-A is getting better artists (at least in my genre). Who knows what that will mean in the end. Right now, the marketing stinks for both formats.

[Jamie Tate]

Well, let me start by commenting on the extinction of MiniDisc. It was in completion with DCC's (Digital Compact Cassettes) and both formats came out around the same time hoping to take way analog cassette's market share (and annoy audiophiles everywhere.) Both formats never really took off except for a minor Mini Disc following due to its convenient design.

Both of these formats represented a step BACKWARDS in quality. Now we're stuck in the middle of an MP3 plague and a whole generation of kids that accept the lousy sound quality. DVD-A and SACD are both advancements but I doubt both formats will survive. PCM is going to eventually be replaced by DSD. You can see it in the trade magazines already. Besides, when you have to UPSAMPLE from PCM to DSD it is implied that DSD is a more robust format. think of it this way, DVD-A, while it's an advancement in sound quality over regular CDs, will be antiquated sooner than SACDs. This will make things ready for yet ANOTHER format changeover. We've taken PCM almost as far as we can. Now it's time to move on to DSD. I'm not even going to say that DSD sounds better than high res PCM. And I'm sure not going to mention that the starting point of DSD is already ahead of the finishing point of PCM. Yup, I'm sure glad I didn't say it.

These are just my opinions I mention for duscussion purposes.:)

[bldg blok]

There are mid-ranged priced universal players Pioneer was supposed to release this month, I haven't kept up w/ it because I bought the DV-45A back in Mar. because I just couldn't wait. If you check the archive/news at highfidelityreview.com you should find a link.

IMO, since I have a universal player the hybrid aspect doesn't interest me. When I read how the redbook layer of "DSotM" was "clipped"...I mean, why bother if that's how it's going to be handled? I've seen people attribute the "cracks" that appear on the Crest pressings of the hybrid discs to a low quality substrate and I can't help but think if it could've been avoided by a single-layer. I also think in terms of the "My Generation" SACD single-layer which has over 90 mins. of music on it. IMO, that's making better use of the SACD capability than adding a backward capable layer to it.

As far as format war, who knows? That's the reason I opted for a universal player. My preference is DVD-A because I enjoy the video aspects. I understand that there is capability for video on SACD, if the Sony/Philips brochure included w/ my CCR SACDs is correct. Sure would be nice if they decided to use it. I know some people don't like having their players hooked up to a TV, but I've yet to find a DVD-A that wouldn't start by my hitting the "play" button after loading the disc in the tray.

[sgraham]

Originally posted by yesman
PCM is going to eventually be replaced by DSD. You can see it in the trade magazines already.
I'm not sure I follow. Please elaborate.

[Steve Hoffman]

He means in the studios.

[BradOlson]

BTW, I do have a MiniDisc deck I bought about a year ago and enjoy it. The ATRAC compression scheme has improved somewhat over the years and my MD transfers from LP and tape have improved in sound quality since I got the American Audio mixer I am using now. I once in a while do listen to one of the MDs I recorded when I am laying down in bed.

[cliff barua]

Originally posted by yesman
Well, let me start by commenting on the extinction of MiniDisc. It was in completion with DCC's (Digital Compact Cassettes) and both formats came out around the same time hoping to take way analog cassette's market share (and annoy audiophiles everywhere.) Both formats never really took off except for a minor Mini Disc following due to its convenient design.

Both of these formats represented a step BACKWARDS in quality. Now we're stuck in the middle of an MP3 plague and a whole generation of kids that accept the lousy sound quality.

Let's be clear on this: MiniDisc is extinct in North America only. It still thrives as a powerful editing recording medium outside North America as a replacement for cassette and now to store MP3's for those so inclined. At this time, there is still no convenient "quality" rewritable replacement (from an editing and convenience (time!!) standpoint, I'd rather do a needle drop to a MD than a CD). While ATRAC algorithms may not be "audiophile", in the right equipment, they are certainly better than audio cassette and MP3 (any sampling rate). All, of course, IMHO. It's all a matter of ears but my SONY ES MD recorder (1999 model) sounds very warm.

As far as the format wars go, it's a bitch, but if you're a real fan of hi-rez music, go and get yourself two separate decent players dedicated to the respective formats (or if you've got the bucks, one of the better universal players, and I don't mean the Pioneer), and some switching devices for 6 channel outputs in both formats. All again, IMHO.

Cliff

[Clay]

I personally think the SACD will win. It's a SONY thing. Sony owns a lot of music now that they will bring out on SACD to promote their format.

It sounds a lot better in 2 channel than a CD. I still have not listened to it in full 5.1 since my only 5.1 SACD capable unit is an inexpensive Onkyo I use for the TV in the den.

The SACD stereo tracks on this player sound a lot better than the CD of the same music. Like Nora Jones. I know I need a better turntable/cartridge and or tt cable, since the SACD sounds almost the same as the vinyl. Both kick the CD.

For those that want into SACD on the cheap.
The Sony DVP-NS500V SACD DVD player received good reviews on head-fi for SACD and redback playback so I bought one for $135. They are still available on ebay for under $100.

[BradOlson]

It's getting closer to the point that when I end up needing to buy another electronic component, an SACD player may be necessary. But if all SACDs in the future will be hybrid, then I won't need to buy an SACD player and if the mastering and/or mixing on the redbook layer is too "hot" I can mix the sound to my liking. I use the surround sound speakers mainly for movies and on my system, even if I play a CD that's uses true mono recordings using my professional equipment, I do get "professional sound," generally speaking.

[davef]

Personally - I used to think one or the other had to win, but don't forget that unlike Beta vs. VHS, SACD and DVD-A are the same physical size. With universal players, I don't think one has to win out... have more SACD's than DVD-A's, and they've generally (though not always...pity that Blue Train) more consistent than DVD-A, but I enjoy both...

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by sgraham

I'm not sure I follow. Please elaborate.

Sorry, Steve is correct. I meant the professional recording world will, in my opinion, adopt DSD as the medium of choice. I think the consumer world will eventually follow. I'd just rather it be sooner than later.

Besides, I don't want to have to turn my TV on when I want to listen to music.:)

[Jamie Tate]

I'm just putting these ideas out for discussion. Please don't take anything I say or any of my opinions personally. That's not my intent. I respect everybody's views and am enjoying reading them.

Had to get that out.:)

[Steve Hoffman]

You going to wear a tie or not?? :)

[Jamie Tate]

Ha!

I think I'm going to take your advice and wear one. Now I have to buy a nice one. All mine have hula girls on them.:)

[bldg blok]

Originally posted by yesman




Besides, I don't want to have to turn my TV on when I want to listen to music.:)
I've yet to encounter a DVD-A disc that wouldn't auto-play when I pushed "Play" when loading the disc on the tray. Your results may vary.

As far as watching TV while listening to music, if it was good enough for Elvis & John Lennon, it's good enough for me. ;) I turn on the CC and watch the ballgame and if a play confuses me, I can read what the commentators are saying.

I'm w/ the poster who asked why people feel one format has to win out. The "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" mindset always seems to materialize when hi-rez is brought up. I'm of the opinion that it's to the benefit of the consumer if there is competition.

Back to the TV aspect, I enjoy the visual aspect of Rock music and I like having lyrics, photos, and videos that I can access. When I saw the booklet that was included by SONY/Philips that was included w/ the "Bayou Country" SACD and it showed a section in a breakdown on the layers of an SACD for "Extra Data" such as "Text/Graphics/Video", I couldn't help but think it would've been great to include the "Proud Mary" video on the "BC" disc.

[proufo]

Once laws and technology restrictions are in place, copy-protection will be the main factor for winning the format war.

If there's no way to replicate SACDs in a computer, SACD will be the winning format simply because the labels will choose it. At that point all mass-market CD players will play SACD (and DVD and perhaps DVD-A) too.

IMHO.

[tomcat]

Originally posted by yesman


I meant the professional recording world will, in my opinion, adopt DSD as the medium of choice. I think the consumer world will eventually follow. I'd just rather it be sooner than later.

Besides, I don't want to have to turn my TV on when I want to listen to music.:)

Since the studios have to replace their PCM equipment (already depreciated?) with expensive Sony gear when switching to DSD, I can hardly imagine that it is only a matter of choice. Without knowing the real economic or contractual facts behind it, I heavily could imagine that it is mere a matter of a little help from Sony... Could it be that they make offers that the studios cannot refuse?

I am surely not an advocat for DVD-A, but the argument "you have to turn on the TV" is definitely history and shouldn't be part of a discussion. Both formats have their positive as well as negative aspects. For example and interestingly enough, the high frequency brickwall filter seems to be more a DSD than a high rez PCM issue, nowadays...

These are only my two cents, of course

Peace
Thomas

[sgraham]

Originally posted by yesman
Sorry, Steve is correct. I meant the professional recording world will, in my opinion, adopt DSD as the medium of choice.


I don't mean to dispute this, you probably have more inside info than me, but I'm just surprised. Why do you think so?


Besides, I don't want to have to turn my TV on when I want to listen to music.:)

Agreed!

I'm just putting these ideas out for discussion. Please don't take anything I say or any of my opinions personally.
I enjoy reading your posts, and I hope I didn't give the impression that I was taking umbrage. Perhaps I should use more smiley's - but, well, no.

[Sckott]

Originally posted by proufo
Once laws and technology restrictions are in place, copy-protection will be the main factor for winning the format war.

Nah. I don't fully agree, but I can see the point on one side. Once I see Warners letting go of DVD-A, I would agree. For now, DVD-A is damn easy to copy, manipulate and even author at home. SACD isn't too far behind. All that has to happen is someone to write a ROM flasher that manipulates DVD-Rom drives to read the serial-protection on SACD. I see the ability to backing up some SACDs a useful venture. Tell someone who's used to making copies of his CDs and making "compilations" that SACD is red-hot and sounds better, he's gonna ask if he can make his own, or copy something. Once you tell him no, he's on to something else.

Piracy or not, it does pose a simple yet annoying problem with SACD. You cannot do things yourself. If you look at the pattern in technology and home improvement, DIY is the new excitement. People WANNA do things themselves more than ever!



If there's no way to replicate SACDs in a computer, SACD will be the winning format simply because the labels will choose it. At that point all mass-market CD players will play SACD (and DVD and perhaps DVD-A) too.

IMHO. [/B]

Heh. But the public at large won't. We will ALWAYS have a big problem with most consumers who think the new mastering on CD is great, and since CDs are easily copy-able and manipulate-able (and already compatible with 600m other players) why change? That is hurdle number one.

The second hurdle is HT. Wanna know what's making more money? It's DVD. And it's not DVD-A (which is losing money). People are all over the entertainment value of DVD because it's now low-cost, higher quality than VHS and coming into a new DIY dawn. Soon there will be video cameras with 3" DVD-R drives built into the camera, and all we need to do is tell people to stick it into their $80 DVD player. This puts more dollar power into entertainment that has to do with movies. VHS and Laserdiscs used to be a dignified market. Now, people are spending millions of deflated American dollars on DVD in a crappy economy. Leave one $20 for ONE cd, and Jane and Dave won't feel like spending it on an SACD or player.

HOWEVER
What sometimes baffles me is the power and the numbers of the average audiophile. What is making this forum grow so damn much? It's not because it's a neat place to read posts about music. Most everyone here is interested into audiophile music and equipment. From what I know, this forum is only a small example of this, and more enthusiasts are coming out of the woodwork.

The other factor is, history has shown us that audio enthusiasts do crazy things, and often switch into new things quite quickly. We'll have to see what keeps happening. For now, I will say what I've been saying for months.

NO MORE CRAPPY SACDS. You'll ruin a very sensitive, picky and dignified market, you fools. :mad:

[GregM]

Well, what you call a crappy SACD sounds pretty darn good to me on the VAC, SCD-1 and N802s. I haven't heard the Meatloaf, Boston, Journey or Aerosmith SACDs, which supposedly suck, but the only lemon I have is one of the Venus Jazz titles from Japan (most of the Venuses are incredible BTW). Other than that, of my 200 or so SACDs, they are all well beyond what a great CD sounds like.

[Grant]

The "there can only be one" mentality comes from the consumer. The consumer wants one format to latch on to. Two formats, while convenient for the entheisiast, is not practical for the consumer. Consumer acceptance is what will make a success out of one format over the other.

As much as I am a fan of SACD, or DSD, DVD-A might win this one in the marketplace just because of availability of hardware and software. Have you taken a lok at the recent issues of ICE lately? I don't see too many SACD releases, but scads of DVD-A titles. Players? DVD-A and DVD players are all over the place. About the only place to find SACD players is on the internet. Circuit city has them, but they are combo players in the-yes, you got it-in the DVD video section. Besides, the affordability of computer DVD burners can only help the format's success.

Minidisc? I wish I could find a cheap new recorder. They beat the cassette for portability and the car. There are no concerns for misalignment, tape snarling, or EQ differences. The blanks are all over the place and I don't think they are going away anytime soon. But, overall, CD-R is just fine for my purposes.

mp3? I wish it would go away simply from a sound quality standpoint. It has lowered the consumer's expectation of sound quality as much as over-compressed/peak-limited commercial CDs.

[JonUrban]

I hope both "survive". I like them both for different reasons, and I like them both because the do surround.

I like having the "video" of a DVD-A (the lyrics, etc.), but I don't miss them on an SACD. I would just like to see MORE OF BOTH!!!!

[bldg blok]

Originally posted by Grant
The "there can only be one" mentality comes from the consumer. The consumer wants one format to latch on to. Two formats, while convenient for the entheisiast, is not practical for the consumer. Consumer acceptance is what will make a success out of one format over the other.


The determining factor in my buying a universal player was that it's not so much a "format" thing, but rather a "label" thing. IOW, the label that an artist is signed to determines the format the hi-rez releases would be. Examples: Grateful Dead/WEA/DVD-Audio, Bob Dylan/SONY-Columbia/SACD. My musical tastes aren't restricted to a certain label so I'm hedging my bets.

I'm not arguing the logic of what you say Grant and I don't think what I've chosen to do is indicative of what the "average" consumer will do, but I believe in having a choice of formats which is why I still have a turntable & cassette deck hooked up. Never did go the MiniDisc route though. :laugh:

[BradOlson]

Although we don't list our MiniDisc product on our website, go to NorthernLightFX and click Contact Us and e-mail us regarding MD decks.