Power amp questions from a novice

[Jason Brown]

I'm entertaining the idea of adding a power amp to my system, and using my Denon 3803 receiver as a preamp.

One of the benefits I would look forward to is pushing more power through my speakers than my receiver's 110 rated watts affords, and one of my questions is would I want to go for an amp with the maximum amount of watts my speakers can handle (200, I think), or would that be overkill in an open-ended room that's approximately 13'x13'?

Since I have no experience with separates, I'm wondering what other things I should look for in an amp, and what other benefits I can look forward to. I know a dedicated preamp would be even better than what I currently have to mate with a power amp, but that's a ways down the road.

[Sckott]

Don't do it. Wait until you can get a preamp. You could cause uneeded damage to your amp or reciever that way.

[Jason Brown]

Whyzat?

[SamS]

I'll disagree with Scott here. Add a power amp to a decent receiver is a good way to get your toes wet in hi-end without doing it all at once.

First, one of the most common misconceptions has to do with watts. Even though the Denon (fine though it is) is rated at 110watts, it's true power might be in the 50 watt range before it starts to distort or clip. 50 watts can be easy to reach during music especially if your speakers are <90dBs efficiency.

Therefore, there is no good "watt number" to tell you that you must get before you will improve upon the Denon's internal amps. I'm not very familiar with your specific speakers. Don't worry about how many watts they can handle. They're more likely to blow up with your Denon clipping than they are with a 500watt stereo monster amp. Are the floor standing? Do you use a sub with them? Many variables to consider here. What is your budget for an amp? Do you want to add a two-channel, or five-channel?

[Jason Brown]

Yeah, watts are something I don't completely understand, and I've heard most of these Japanese products tend to overstate their actual wattage.

My Paradigm 60s are floorstanders. I do use a sub. I'd like a 2-channel amp new for less than $1000, and have my eye on a Rotel, but I'm not loyal to any manufacturer.

[audio]

Originally posted by Jason Brown
Yeah, watts are something I don't completely understand, and I've heard most of these Japanese products tend to overstate their actual wattage.

My Paradigm 60s are floorstanders. I do use a sub. I'd like a 2-channel amp new for less than $1000, and have my eye on a Rotel, but I'm not loyal to any manufacturer.


I think if you add Rotel to your Paradigm 60s, you'll have an overly bright mess on your hands.

[Jason Brown]

Originally posted by prix



I think if you add Rotel to your Paradigm 60s, you'll have an overly bright mess on your hands.

I'm certainly open to suggestions.

So a reputable amp maker's wattage rating should be more accurate than Denon's, correct?

[SamS]

Originally posted by Jason Brown
My Paradigm 60s are floorstanders. I do use a sub. I'd like a 2-channel amp new for less than $1000, and have my eye on a Rotel, but I'm not loyal to any manufacturer.

Boom, here ya go: Rotel RB-1080. Two-hundred watts x 2, $999.

I'll disagree with Prix here as well. I don't think Rotel will add to the brightness of your speakers. I've heard dozens of Rotel amplification products, and if anything I find them a bit on the warm side. While not the last word in resolution, it might balance out your Paradigms.

Go to a local dealer who will let you return for full refund within 7 days. Most Rotel dealers will have no problem with this.

[SamS]

Originally posted by Jason Brown

So a reputable amp maker's wattage rating should be more accurate than Denon's in their rated wattage department, no?

YES! If anything, throw the watts numbers out the window and just go pick up the amplifier. The heavier one for the same price will almost certainly be more powerful.

[Jason Brown]

I have read that the Rotels are bright as well. I do have a good relationship with the local dealer, though, so I think this will be a good place to start.

I'd still like to hear others' suggestions, and opinions as to whether even 130wpc may be a significant upgrade.

[Steve Hoffman]

Jason,

Doubling watts only adds about 2 db of headroom to your sound. Pointless.

If your speakers can only handle a certain amount of watts, don't push it.

[SamS]

Originally posted by Jason Brown
I have read that the Rotels are bright as well. I do have a good relationship with the local dealer, though, so I think this will be a good place to start.

I'd still like to hear others' suggestions, and opinions as to whether even 130wpc may be a significant upgrade.

Ah, don't worry too much about what you read. Go ask your Rotel dealer (who listens to them every day) if they're bright.

Once again, watts are really not worth your time to worry about. I guarantee you this, go get Rotel's smallest amp, the RB-1050 a 70wpc $399 stereo amp. Hook it up to your Denon's line-outs and listen to be immediately impressed by what 70watts of high current watts does vs. what Japanese manufacturers offer. Since you have a better budget, you can aim higher and get even better results.

[Jason Brown]

Maybe I'll ask to borrow the 1070 since it's right in the middle.

I don't really have a budget per se, more like I still have some unused plastic.

[Sckott]

When you series-pair amps (a intergrated into a power amp) it's bad news. I don't think you're gonna like the sound, and if pushed for long periods of time, you tend to risk damage. Is it worth it?

Donno. Maybe this is an experiment. Something to learn down the road. I know people disagree here, and that's fine. But it's not very smart.

If you need power or options, there's nothing with buying second hand SS stuff with a smart direction in mind, where ever you wanna go.

There. That's it from me.

[SamS]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Jason,

Doubling watts only adds about 2 db of headroom to your sound. Pointless.

If your speakers can only handle a certain amount of watts, don't push it.

All true, Mr. Hoffman. But, as you very well know, a better amplifer design can lead to all kinds of wonders, better soundstage, midrange clarity, bass response....

[SamS]

Originally posted by Sckott
When you series-pair amps (a intergrated into a power amp) it's bad news. I don't think you're gonna like the sound, and if pushed for long periods of time, you tend to risk damage. Is it worth it?

Donno. Maybe this is an experiment. Something to learn down the road. I know people disagree here, and that's fine. But it's not very smart.

There. That's it from me.

Scott, I don't know if we're understanding what Jason is trying to do here. I believe he would like to run the additional amplifier off the line-level pre-amp out jacks on his receiver. In effect, using just the pre-amplifier section of the unit. Not ideal, but no potential for damage.

Edit: well at least no potential damage that I know of. I certainly am not trying to come off as a know-it-all. As I re-read Scott's comments, I'm pretty sure he know what's going on. Plus, Scott has got this tube amplification thing down pat (something that I don't know if I'll every fully comprehend), so you've got good reasons to take his advice.

carry on, carry on......

[Sckott]

"I'm entertaining the idea of adding a power amp to my system, and using my Denon 3803 receiver as a preamp."

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2002/033/x033AVR3803-b_MT.jpeg

Okay. Yes he can. I thought he was chaining amps. Whew. Sounded like Audio ******* for a min.

[Jason Brown]

Originally posted by SamS


Scott, I don't know if we're understanding what Jason is trying to do here. I believe he would like to run the additional amplifier off the line-level pre-amp out jacks on his receiver. In effect, using just the pre-amplifier section of the unit. Not ideal, but no potential for damage.

Sam is correct as to what I'm trying to do. I appreciate all the responses to this thread. I have a lot to learn about equipment, and I'm glad I have a good place with knowledgable people to do so.

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by SamS


All true, Mr. Hoffman. But, as you very well know, a better amplifer design can lead to all kinds of wonders, better soundstage, midrange clarity, bass response....

Not if he is going to mingle those watts with his receiver watts. That would really suck.


OK, I see. He is using his receiver as a preamp.

[SamS]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman


Not if he is going to mingle those watts with his receiver watts. That would really suck.


OK, I see. He is using his receiver as a preamp.

Yeah! Now we're on the same page. :thumbsup:

So whadaya say, Steve? Good amp design leads to some nice sound, right?

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by SamS


Yeah! Now we're on the same page. :thumbsup:

So whadaya say, Steve? Good amp design leads to some nice sound, right?

Of course.

Get the best amp you can afford, Jason. Don't worry so much about the number of watts, but about the quality of those watts. As they say, the FIRST watt is the most important!

[sprocket]

I'm wondering would it be better to go with a high end integrated? There a many good ones out there for not too much money. I guess an important question is are you using all the extra features (surround channels etc) on the Denon?
Just something to think about.

Sprocket

[Dave]

Depends on your motivation sprocket.

Do you want a great sounding two-channel set-up or a multi-channel system? Unless of course you plan on buying seperate systems for each.

[Jason Brown]

As much as I'd like to, I can't see me having separate systems in the near future. I do use the surround features on the Denon once in a while for movies, and for hi-rez music with no dedicated stereo tracks, but my main interest is 2-channel music.

[michael w]

IME using an AVR as a preamp is a short term solution.

The preamp sections in most AVRs may be full featured but are usually pretty poor sounding compared with separate pre/pros.

Tack on a good amp and you are stiil stuck with a crummy preamp stage.

If you want to go into separates, start with proper separate components.


cheerio