What's up with DVD-A's obsession with bass?

[Steve w]

I just bought a Techniques A-10 DVD-A player. I noticed DVD-A has a LOT more bass than SACD. Too much in my opinion. I have a Sony SACD player also. So far, my vote goes for SACD. I don't know if the DVD-A player has to be "broken in" or not. Anyone else notice/agree how much more bass is on DVD-A than SACD?

[Grant]

Who knows. My guess is that it was mixed bassier for the surround playback. If you're talking about the folded-down stereo in DVD-A that's likely anopther one of the drawbacks with it. Of course, this could only really be demonstratred if the exact, same recording is on both formats for camparison.

Again, my votes go to SACD.

[luke j. chung]

Grant, you also have to remember that DVD-A also has room for the original stereo and/or mono mixes of these releases. You don't necessarily have to listen to folded down surround mixes for more than 95% of the DVD-A titles out there now. Only a relative handful of these releases have this problem. Just remember to read the fine print on the labelling to make sure they carry the original non-surround mixes as well as the new ones!;)

[Grant]

Right. But, still, the only way to see if there is a problem inherent in DVD-A or if it's just a mixing/mastering difference is to have the exact, same album and mastering on both formats for comparison. It may be too simple to say that one has more bass than the other.

My point is that unless the DVD-A playback is set up properly, you are going to have problems that SACD probably doesn't have.

And, just because there is room for both types of formats on a DVD-A doesn't mean the producers are putting both on them.

It's possible to make layers for SACD/SACD surround and regular CD on SACD but the CD layer is not being used for reissue titles.

[FabFourFan]

Originally posted by Steve w
I just bought a Techniques A-10 DVD-A player. I noticed DVD-A has a LOT more bass than SACD. Too much in my opinion.It would seem, ahem, unlikely that you have discovered a previously unknown gross defect in DVD-A playback... ;)

Perhaps the dreaded bass-management issue is bedeviling you?

Or perhaps your new Technics is actually defective?

[Uncle Al]

Well, what disc are you listening to? I have heard the bass heavy and shrill in DVD-A mixes. Are you listening to a 5.1 mix (or a foldown of one)? I always think that 5.1 mixes are "bass heavy", just to emphasize SOMETHING in a discreet sub-woofer channel...

Every separate "mastering" has a coloring - at best the coloring is slight. Even in the "non-hi-rez" realm I have heard bass heavy masters (REM's MFSL gold CD of Mumur, for example). However - even with Murmur, I find that the overall sonic enhancements are worthy of reducing the bass response on my end. After all the Mastering Guru himself has already admitted heavy low end EQ to the Mama's and Papa's. Funny thing is - that disc sounds perfect played back FLAT on MY system....

[Steve Hoffman]

Remember, I added heavy low end so the music would sound NORMAL. I would never "thump up" the bass for no reason. I HATE that sound.

The Mamas & Papas tapes just didn't have ANY bass....

[MikeT]

I tend to agree. Many DVD-Audio discs have way to much bass pushed into the LFE.

The problem was, early DVD-Audio releases by Warner's tended to have no bass at all. They must have heard this and decided, "OK - so they want bass - TAKE THAT".

Alot of DVD-Audio discs send me RUNNING to my subwoofer to lower the bass output. I hate that.

But I must add, that once the sub is dialed in correctly for each specific disc, the bass can sound pretty good, actually.

[Grant]

Originally posted by MikeT
I tend to agree. Many DVD-Audio discs have way to much bass pushed into the LFE.

The problem was, early DVD-Audio releases by Warner's tended to have no bass at all. They must have heard this and decided, "OK - so they want bass - TAKE THAT".

Alot of DVD-Audio discs send me RUNNING to my subwoofer to lower the bass output. I hate that.

But I must add, that once the sub is dialed in correctly for each specific disc, the bass can sound pretty good, actually.

They are probably making the compensation for the millions of people who don't have dedicated DVD-A players or for people with inadequate playback setups, which is the majority of people.

[rodney sherman]

Originally posted by Steve w
I just bought a Techniques A-10 DVD-A player. I noticed DVD-A has a LOT more bass than SACD. Too much in my opinion. I have a Sony SACD player also. So far, my vote goes for SACD. I don't know if the DVD-A player has to be "broken in" or not. Anyone else notice/agree how much more bass is on DVD-A than SACD? I have to cut my sub back about 7 dBs in order to enjoy most of my dvd-a titles. I have it at 0 dB for sacd.

[rodney sherman]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Remember, I added heavy low end so the music would sound NORMAL. I would never "thump up" the bass for no reason. I HATE that sound.

The Mamas & Papas tapes just didn't have ANY bass.... You did a very good job with the bass on the Eagles (Hotel California). A lot better low end than the standard cd. Remaster more 80s rock if You can!

[Gary]

I simply thought that DVD-A was bass heavy, just the same way that some movie soundtracks are bass heavy. It's to give you that movie cinema surround sound experience but for music only.

You know, the 'impressive rumbling bass' , 'shake you in your seat' surround sound experience. "You Are There" type stuff.

Don't laugh, the first time I heard DVD-A was a demo in a movie theatre.

Unimpressive. Should be much better in a home environment.

But what do I know? I don't have a DVD-A player but I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth. ;)

[PsychFan]

Originally posted by rodney sherman
You did a very good job with the bass on the Eagles (Hotel California). A lot better low end than the standard cd. Remaster more 80s rock if You can!


Just splitting hairs here ... but wasn't Hotel California issued in 1976 or '77?

-- Jeff (who, sadly, has yet to hear Steve's version of this album)

[Sckott]

I don't see problems with any of my DVD-As so far on bass. You have to realize I have a seperate bass LFR channel, with its own amp. I suppose if you took the DD or DTS and played it back as stereo, a lot of the time, I've noticed some preamps and receivers cross over a lot of the unused channels. My LFR bass channel has its own crossover and gain controls. I just have it pointed into the wall, so I can use the controls if I so choose....

DVD-A has to be listened to properly. So does DTS. Ya can't fool around. Is this where the problem might be?

[rodney sherman]

Wanna know the problems with dvd audio? They set the disc up to were you need large speakers to enjoy the bass that does not go into the subwoofer! I have a satellite sub system and its not doing well on dvd audio. Dvd audio needs to be mastered so all the bass goes into the subwoofers.Is there others that agree with me on this subject? Just picked up foriegner's 4 and it sounds like the sub turns on and off when playing Urgent in 6 channel surround.:mad:

[Uncle Al]

Rodney: The symptoms you described are the exact reasons why music isn't suited for a DISCREET subwoofer channel. (I may add here that if the SACD surround releases use a discreet .1 channel, they will have the same problems).

In a dedicated music system (good old stereo) that utilized a subwoofer, bass managemnt was somewhat easy. Either the amplifier or the subwoofer directed all signals below a certain frequency to the subwoofer channel. This "crossover point" was ususally adjustible - if not on the amp, then surely on the subwoofer. Even "middle end" receiver would state the crossover frequncy in the manual. You set you sub accordingly, and with a little bit of tweaking it in - you were good to go.

When the subwoofer channel is discreet, the producer of the disc is determining the crossover frequency. So if the Eagles disc directs all frequncies below 60 hz to the subwoofer channel, and The Foreigner disc crosses over at 100 hz, you have a lot system adjusting to do from disc to disc to get all the sound. There is no standard - no fixed rules. If you have a sattelite system that doesn't really allow for adjustments, you have a bigger problem.

Example: If your system crosses over at 80hz, and the Foreigner disc crosses over at 60 hz, the bass will sound like it is pumping in and out (you are losing a 20 hz frequency range). If your system crosses over at 80 Hz and the disc at 60hz, Both you mains and sub are producing the same frequencies and you will get an annoying boominess.

I don't knock listening to music with a sub - but it should not be a DISCREET channel for music.

[MikeT]

Rodney you may be correct in that DVD-Audio might be best suited for full range speakers all around. I am lucky to have such a set-up and all I can say is that both DVD-Audio and MCH SACD sound great. But without bass management, which seems to be your problem, I can see where you might be underwhelmed by what DVD-Audio is capable of if you had full range speakers for all the main channels.

[JohnT]

I've just incorporated bass management (Outlaw ICBM) into my system due to different speaker sizes/ratings. Without a proper crossover, distortion can ruin the experience due to the speaker not being able to get down.

Things sound much smoother now. Ventura Highway (America Homecoming DVD-A), has a nice range with full sound as compared to prior playback with no bass management.