Fabulous Sound -- Dean Martin Reprise Years on Bear Family

[feinstein]

Just received the two new Bear Family sets of the Dean Martin Reprise years. I have listened to the first box set and was shocked at how really excellent the sound is on the Reprise Studio stuff! Bill Inglot apparently did the mixdown from 3 track and got some great sound from these tapes. The sound on the "Dream With Dean" (mid-1964 guitar/bass/drums/piano)small-group sessions is truly some of the best I've heard. Even some of the swarmy orchestral stuff has great sound and is really enjoyable to listen to. I haven't yet heard the second set, but the first set is really stellar quality. Very similar to Artanis's (DCC's) "Robin and the Seven Hoods" quality.

Steve, have you heard any of these early 60's Dean Martin masters? Can you verify the great sound that I'm hearing on these Bear Family CD's? Why are the Dean Martin CD's (especially in these masterings) so good while the Reprise Frank Sinatra stuff is sooooo bad?

[Steve Hoffman]

The Sinatra three-tracks sound great, just like "Robin & The Seven Hoods". His Reprise stuff just needs a good mix. I've heard some pretty bad stuff on those CD reissues. The "breath of death". They must have forgotten to hire me as a consultant.
:D

I'm sure the Dean two-tracks sound pretty bad, or they would have been used instead of having to go back and remix.

One thing though, they always put an RCA Ribbon Microphone on Dean. They gave Sinatra the Neumann.

Listen on the DCC "Robin & The Seven Hoods" to Dean's voice and Frank's voice on the song "Style". You can clearly hear the difference in mic textures. I guess Frank liked that more aggressive German mic sound.

[Holy Zoo]

Frederick, where does one go to find Bear Family reissues?

[Dugan]

Here's a link to thier site:

http://www.bear-family.de/index_english.htm

or you can try Collector's Choice Music:

http://www.collectorschoicemusic.com

[Holy Zoo]

Ack! Is that the $134.96 set on the frontpage?

[Dugan]

It looks like it to me but look what you get:

"Every note Dino recorded for Reprise from 1962 to January 1966, including some rare singles, never-before-reissued soundtrack recordings and one unissued track on 6 CDs. And the DVD includes movie trailers and special bonus tracks! An LP-sized hardcover book provides the details behind the 160-some tracks. "

If it is anything like Bear's Beatles Bop set I got at CC it's well worth the price.

[Michael]

Oh NOOOOOOO!!!! Bill Inglot!!!!! Does that mean Dino MONO? Are they Stereo? Please tell me, How much did you get them for? I love Dino. I have the other 2 bear family Box sets, Return To Me & Memories Are made Of This.. They Are fantastic!!! Got a chill when I heard Inglot mentioned...

[Holy Zoo]

I just visited the Bear Family website, and it appeas that there are a few Dean Martin sets. Frederick - can you clue me in to which one's the right one?

[jligon]

There is also a guy on Ebay, somewhere in South Carolina, that continually has hundreds of Bear Family CDs on. His user name is cdwolf. I'm not sure where he gets them. They're all new, but the single CDs are not shrinkwrapped. He sells them for a little cheaper than you can get then in stores or mailorder. $14.50 for a single CD. There's usually not too much competition in bidding because they're constantly relisted.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=cdwolf&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25

[indy mike]

I really like Bear's stuff - the liners are always in humongous booklets, the session info is almost always listed, the sound is usually superb, and they really love what they do. Don't have the Dino stuff (I go for the rockabilly stuff they dig reissuing - can't get it from domestic labels) - so I can't vouch for what Mr. Inglot did to the sound, but I'd guess he did what Bear's owners told him to do, so there's probably stereo galore since Bear is pretty good about that sorta thing. Boy, I miss when Bill I. would remix things to stereo at Rhino MANY moons ago - guess I've opened the stereo/mono mishmash again - oops!!! :D

[Michael]

Indy Mike,
I used to love everything Bill Inglot did. I got excited when I saw his name on a reissue project. Not anymore...Not that he isn't great it's just i'm afraid of the CONTENTS. Got tired of buying the same thing over and over and over.....

[indy mike]

I'm afraid of Mr. I's brittle sonic shenanigans at Rhino/Warner/Elektra - that Nuggets boxed and all its mono pissed me off to no end, but that's a rant I'll not start again (GRRRRRR :mad: ). However, look at the Monkees catalog - he does seem to be keeping those stereo. As for Dino, I'd suggest looking at the Both Sides Now stereo site and post a comment about wanting info on the boxed set from Bear - somebody will fill you in. Bear Family is pretty good about stereo whenever possible, and with 3 tracks available I'd betcha there's poolenty of stereo action going on. Heck, go to Bear's site and email them - I bought a couple of those rockabilly That'll Flat Git It comps, and those monster books had some pages missing - I emailed them, and they promptly airmailed me replacement booklets - that's what I call service! :)

[Dave B]

The Bear Family sets are among the most comprehensive collections ever produced. The only downside is the price. I wish they'd condense some of thier boxes down to two disc essentials collections.

[feinstein]

Actually, Bill Inglot is credited on these Bear Family sets as the guy responsible for the "3 Track Mix". The mastering is credited to a fellow named Juergen Crasser. Tape comparison is credited to Brian Henson.

As far as the sound goes, it is unbeatable. In comparing the tracks that are common between the Bear Family set and the DCC "Robin and the Seven Hoods" CD, I could find little to complain about the Bear Family. The DCC was slightly warmer, but the Bear Family had the same fine soundstage and separation between instruments and voices. I have the original Reprise mono and stereo "Dream With Dean" LP's, the Collector's Choice 2fer CD, and have compared them to the Bear Family. The Bear Family discs win hands down. It is rare to find a set with such fabulous and intimate sound. Bear Family must have done a lot of tape research to find the very best masters available.

Of course, the only way to verify this for yourself is to listen to the set, which is an expensive proposition! Also, just because something has "Bill Inglot" or whatever, doesn't mean that it's necessarily bad. In this case, there is no discernable noise reduction used (comparing with the DCC "Robin" disc) and the sound is not hard or metallic at all. In fact, I would place sound on some of these recordings on the line with some of the best audiophile stuff out there and they would compare favorably.

Again, I repeat my belief that one cannot comment on the "goodness" or "badness" of an LP or CD unless they've actually sat down and listened to it. Buying by "brand name" (Bill Inglot is always bad -- Steve Hoffman is always good) seems to be a silly way to decide what to listen to. Remember that most of the goodness or badness of the sound comes from what's on the original master tapes, not what the mastering engineer does. As long as the correct master tapes were used to produce a CD/LP (which seems to be the case on these Bear Family sets), the sound can be excellent no matter who mastered it. For example, it's possible that the Monkees stuff was badly recorded or that the tapes have degenerated badly, thus the Bill Inglot masterings were "hard" and "metallic". Perhaps people are so blinded by whose name's on the "Remastered by:" line on the label that they forget to listen to what's on the CD/LP and instead cast unwarranted aspersions on the actual sound.

As far as "buying stuff that you already have", these two sets comprise all of Dean's master recordings from the Reprise years. If you bought the 2fers from Collector's Choice Music recently, then there will be a lot of duplication. However, these sets contain lots of masters that never made it to an album (45 only tracks, promo only tracks, one unreleased track, movie soundtrack stuff). Also, for some reason the Collector's Choice 2fer version of "Everybody Loves Somebody" was in mono, it's in stereo here.

[feinstein]

I'm sorry but I forgot to add that all the tracks on both of these collections are in stereo.

[indy mike]

Mr. F - you're right about being quick to judge without listening first; unfortunately, that can be a mighty expensive lesson - my extreme dislike of the sound quality on, say, the Nuggets boxed set stems from the grungy, mono sources used excessively in order "to be true to the original releases" - swell, except if you track down the original Nuggets lp's there's a whole lotta stereo on them, and more of that stuff showed up in the 80's and 90's in clean, 2 channel sound. Heck, Bob Irwin did a lot of legwork and offered stereo for many of the tunes while that box was compiled, and Mr. Inglot chose to not go that route. As for the brittle, harsh sound of a lot of stuff that Bill I. masters, he frequently does have access to masters (the Atlantic/Warner/Elektra catalog is at his disposal for comps and straight album reissues), yet the results are unpleasant to my ears, mono or stereo. I'd rather not buy stuff with his name on it until I can see some reviews from folks I tend to be in agreement with regarding the sonics. There are some things he's done that do sound nice - whenever he uses Paul Revere's Just Like Me it has a slammin' sound I can't find on other sets, and form the early to mid 80's he wsan't so adamant about mono and did some fresh stereo mixes for things people had dreamed of hearing in stereo (Friday on My Mind comes to mind). As for the Monkees, tapes slowly came outta the woodwork as Rhino dug for stuff for their reissues, and subsequent purchase of the Prefab 4's material from Arista.

[Cousin It]

I love Bear Family.I had the same prob as indy mike,I bought one of those rockabilly comps and it had pages missing,same prob,same result,I emailed 'em and they sent me another one.The only time I ever got service like that was with Mosaic Records.BF are easily the best reissue label around ,they've done about 30(yep 30) of those rockabilly comps and started working on Canadian rockabilly,who in hell would even bother but them??.They are really through and I like 'em for it,when people complain about prices,most of them have not seen what they do,can you imagine a major label releasing a 6 CD box set on Johnnie & Jack or a 16 CD set on Jim Reeves or a 10 CD set on Californian country great Wynn Stewart ??
Remember folks that some of those single CD's cost a hell of a lot less that one old vinyl 45 that's on it and BF pack the discs to the brim and put well packed booklets in them for slighty more(and that depends on where you look) that a locally produced product.

Here is a post and reply re:BF that you may find interesting.

>"stacie herndon"
wrote on Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:01:47 -0000:
>
>I don't know how many of you know that while it seems their efforts are of
>good will and preservation, you should also know that the Bear Family is
>notorious for NOT PAYING these artists. I know of one Bear artist who got
>a "stipend" of a mere $1,000 - CAPPED...for the re-release and distribution
>of his entire album. They buy up old record catalogs, and legally they
>really don't owe anything...but morally and ethically it is disgusting to
>capitalize off of musicians who have already struggled and never got their
>just desserts in the first place. So next time you go lay out $20-30 for a
>Bear Family CD,
>think about that. Then you won't feel bad about burning copies for
>50 or 60 of your closest friends. If the artist isn't getting any
>money, why should we keep making that label rich?

A few thoughts I have here:

(1) Before Bear Family started putting out things like the Lefty box set
(starting the deluge that's come since), to my knowledge no country music
singer had EVER been even remotely repackaged in such a respectful, serious
way. Certainly not by the major labels. A handful of tiny companies were
putting out single LPs with varying degrees of quality and finesse. But
nothing as thorough and definitive as Bear Family. They should always be
recognized as the pioneers of reissuing vintage country music, hell, ANY
kind of music, the RIGHT WAY. They showed everybody else how it's done and
now even major label idiots who could absolutely care less about the old
music in their own vaults have come around to the point where you commonly
see Bear Family-like box sets on labels like MCA and Sony. Had it not been
for Richard Weize and Bear Family showing them how it's done, those idiots
would STILL be doing it like they had in the '70s and most of the '80s --
putting out pure garbage that insults the artist, the consumer, and everyone
else but their accountants. Things have improved VASTLY in just the last ten
years, and we largely have Bear Family to thank for that.

(2) Bear Family has always made it explicitly clear -- it says so on page
one of their catalogues -- that they make NO MONEY on their own products,
and all of their revenues come from their mail order business (they are one
of the biggest, I think, distributors of music CDs in Europe). And there's
absolutely no reason or evidence to think they're falsifying this claim.
Weize is obsessed with reissuing as much vintage country music as he
possibly can, damn the profits and everything else. He recognizes that
that's the only way this music is going to come out. If he was worried about
some auditor peering over his shoulder with every new release, Bear Family
would've tanked 15 years ago. Reissue CDs by well-known country legends have
a "cap," like Deke said, of 3000 copies, maybe more on a few occasions.
Thus, it stands to reason that if an established name artist only sells that
much, that people like Jenks "Tex" Carmen, Werly Fairburn, and Ole
Rasmussen's Nebraska Cornhuskers (to name but three) are lucky to sell 1000.
Weize doesn't care if these lose money -- which they either do, or barely
break even -- just as long as the music is restored back in print, and
properly, and he has food money at the end of the month. He isn't poor, but
he sure as hell ain't "getting rich" off of this stuff.

(3) You say that Bear Family is "notorious for not paying these artists."
What about these monolithic corporations they license their tapes from?
Shouldn't they take some (or ALL) of the blame for not paying the artists?
They could certainly afford to if they wanted. Bear Family cannot. And it's
totally unfair to single out THEM in this argument. EVERYONE, dozens of
companies in the reissue business do the exact same thing -- they license
their wares from Sony, MCA, or BMG, put out their product, sell a few
thousand at the most, and invariably refrain from sending the artist in
question a plum nickle. So, if you want to take up the issue of artist's
rights, and corporate greed, fine, but don't portray Bear Family as the sole
culprits. There's plenty of blame to go around.

(4) Weize spares no expense producing his CDs or boxsets, regardless of how
well-known or "obscure" the artist in question is. For the box set books, he
doesn't tell you to keep your essay at 5000 words (for example) like every
other company would tell you. He lets you write as much as you think is
necessary to do justice to the artist or label. If you're not a writer, you
don't know what a rare and generous privilege this is. I wrote the book for
their Sarg Records box set -- my essay came out to be 28,000 words. Who the
hell else is going to approve of publishing 28,000 words on
Sarg-freaking-Records? (No one. It was a rhetorical question.)

(5)It's not so cut-and-dried as "Bear Family isn't paying their artists."
This ignores the fact that 90% (or more?) of the people Bear Family reissues
are deceased. Look at their latest releases: Leon Chappel, Gene O'Quin,
Orval Prophet, and Ole Rasmussen have been dead for 20 years. Leon died 38
years ago. They either have no living relatives, or, in the case of O'Quin,
had 5 or 6 wives and 10 children. Whom do you pay? From their latest
releases, Charlie Adams and Big Bill Lister are still alive. I don't think
Bear paid them anything, but I know they DO always send a huge stack of
complimentary CDs to their few "living" artists. I'm sure those mean more to
Charlie and Bill than any money they would receive. A dozen or so CDs would
retail over here in the USA for more than $200. NO other reissue company is
as generous as Bear is in this regard. I could call up Weize tomorrow and
tell him to send 10 free copies of the Lister CD to me 'cause I know 10 guys
who played in Bill's band in the '50s. Anybody else would laugh at such a
request; Weize would do it.

...I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. Like I said, if you want to
discuss corporate profiteering in the music business, fine, but it's
unwarrented and unjust to point the blame at Bear Family. They don't deserve
it.

Andrew

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by feinstein
In comparing the tracks that are common between the Bear Family set and the DCC "Robin and the Seven Hoods" CD, I could find little to complain about the Bear Family. The DCC was slightly warmer, but the Bear Family had the same fine soundstage and separation between instruments and voices.

Well, since they used my mix, the DCC and Bear Family versions should be pretty close.

[Andrew]

Originally posted by Dave B
The Bear Family sets are among the most comprehensive collections ever produced. The only downside is the price. I wish they'd condense some of thier boxes down to two disc essentials collections.

Me too, that is WAAAAY more Dino than I'd ever want. But a good "best-of" would be another matter.

[feinstein]

Steve,

I find it amazing that Bear Family used your mixes for the "Robin and the Seven Hoods" tracks. Do you have to give explicit permission or does EMI (the current record company who licenses the Dean Martin stuff) have rights to use your mixes for their subsequent releases?

As I've begged before, I'd love for you to get your hands on the early Frank Sinatra Reprise stuff and give them the mastering job that they deserve. They sound just awful in all of their incarnations, LP, CD, etc. -- the bootlegs made from the mono safetys are much better!

Have you ever listened to the 3 tracks from the "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" sessions for example? Do they sound good? Urban legend says that they have been lost, but you say that they still exist. Is there any chance that your new label could make "premium" gold releases of "Ring-a-Ding-Ding", "I Remember Tommy", "Sinatra Swings" etc. etc? What about the recordings on 35 MM? Do the 35 MM original masters still exist or have they melted away?

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by feinstein
Steve,

I find it amazing that Bear Family used your mixes for the "Robin and the Seven Hoods" tracks. Do you have to give explicit permission or does EMI (the current record company who licenses the Dean Martin stuff) have rights to use your mixes for their subsequent releases?

Have you ever listened to the 3 tracks from the "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" sessions for example? Do they sound good? Urban legend says that they have been lost, but you say that they still exist. Is there any chance that your new label could make "premium" gold releases of "Ring-a-Ding-Ding", "I Remember Tommy", "Sinatra Swings" etc. etc? What about the recordings on 35 MM? Do the 35 MM original masters still exist or have they melted away?

First of all, those aren't MY mixes, well I mean, they are, but they are owned by Warner/Reprise and Artanis. I just did the work for them. They can do what they want with them, I don't care! It's possible that Bear Family remixed them again, but why bother? It took me months to mix that silly album just right. I doubt they would want to spend that much time on just a few songs. Especially since you say the soundstage matches the DCC version. Most of that soundstage I created using a few tricks.... Hard to believe they could duplicate it exactly. But, maybe they did. At any rate, the stuff I worked on can be used anywhere, anytime, as long as it is legal and approved by Warner Bros.!

I have listened to the three-track masters on the "Ring A Ding Ding" album, "Sinatra Swings", "I Remember Tommy", Sinatra With Strings" and every other Sinatra Reprise LP effort, and the 45 RPM only releases as well, up to and including the last of the four-track stuff; "Strangers In The Night", "That's Life", "Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim" and "Ellington". They all vary a bit depending on the engineer, but they all sound wonderful!

There are no 35mm masters for "The Concert Sinatra". Just the three-track transfers from the 35mm. Just as well, because those 35mm fullcoats would have turned to vinegar by now... Same for that other 35mm Sinatra song "You Brought A New Kind Of Love To Me".

[Steve Hoffman]

I've just been informed by someone in the know that the Bear Family Dean box didn't use the DCC Gold CD mixes of songs from "Robin And The Seven Hoods".

So, that takes care of that. :)

[Michael]

How much did you guys pay for the 2 Dino Reprise Box Sets?

[njwiv]

Originally posted by Michael
How much did you guys pay for the 2 Dino Reprise Box Sets?

My wife bought them for me as a birthday gift, but since she let me open the package I know that she paid $135 each at Collectors Choice Music. They were also running free shipping at the time, plus for orders over $100 we got a free copy of the America: A Tribute to Heroes CD. Overall, a very good deal!

You might also be able to get them a few bucks cheaper from CDWolf on eBay, but you'd be hard pressed to find them any lower than $128 or so based on my extensive searching. Most online retailers are charging around $208, so either CCM or CDWolf appears to be the way to go.

Not sure if folks remember this retailer, but the now defunct massmusic.com (if I recall the name correctly) had a massive sale in the halcyon days of e-commerce where all CDs were 60% off or something ridiculous like that. I eagerly picked up the first two Bear boxes from them for approximately $70 each!

Those were the days! If I had only known more about Steve and DCC then, I really could have cleaned up.

[Michael]

Amazon has them for $227.00 EACH!!!! How can there be such a price difference? On Bear Family's site they are about $135 + shipping which can be expensive. I guess collectors choice is the best route.