Apostrophe

[Andy]

I think Apostrophe was one of Zappa's best. Anyone heard a good reissue of this one? My original LP is getting a little worn. The sound is starting to head south.

[Paul Chang]

Did you apply Last Record Preservative on it? Don't overheat the grooves by playing your favorite tracks repeatedly. ;)

[Andy]

I've not tried LAST Record Preservative. I think I'll try it on a few others though.

[Paul Chang]

After you make them clean and dry, of course. :D
As for the damaged grooves, I'm not sure anything could help, short of a laser turntable.

But I digressed. I'm not aware of any "Apostrophe" reissue on vinyl. There are several different versions on CD. The Rykodisc Au20 20-bit gold disc raved by (FWIW) The REAL Frank Zappa Home Page http://www.zappa.com/ is probably out of print. A Ryko regular and a japanese import (expensive) CD are still available. But I can't comments on their sounds (don't have either).

Come on guys (and gals), give us some help!

Is there hope that Master Steve will remaster this and other Zappa titles? Hem, S&P will be distributed by Ryko... I'm just dreaming. :D

[Sckott]

I haven't ppulled out my copy of Apostrophe(CD), but I still have the older 2-fer Ryco and even the MiniDisc counterpart. The Ryco won't fail to please. The reissue that was "remastered" later in the Zappa/Ryco scheme doesn't sound bad at all. If you see either copy of the Ryco in the used racks, don't be timid.

The DISCREET vinyl (WB) was pressed fairly hot. Don't blame your setup or your repetitive listening nature. Most copies of that album I've seen get grey-grooved fairly easy. I would concider "Overnight Sensation" also a vital Zappa experience. I had a real Zappa buying streak, and I have almost every CD available, even 200 Motels. Not sure if you like all facets of Zappa's career, but here's a few open recommendations, if you're looking for something rockin:

Yeah, there's We're Only In It For The Money n' Lumpy Gravy, but One Size Fits all, Guitar (Shut up and play your Guitar too), Hot Rats, Joe's garage, Absolutely Free, Bongo Fury, Freak Out, Man From Utopia and Ship Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch... God, you could spend a whole year going into the Zappa void, but WOW. Sheik Yerbuti (for instance) was of live origin, then overdubbed studio. Lots of Zappa's best and wildest stuff (You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore) doesn't have to be proficantly recorded to be impressive. In fact, in the studio, things were EQ'd bright more often than not. Overdubbs times infinity and flown-in craziness that get pretty insane, to the point where bottom end gets all but gone. Mastering Zappa is a ride, I'm SURE!

I forgot to mention, I LOVE "You Are What You Is". Absolutely KILLER. Wanna listen and count the tape dropouts? Ya get the picture. Zappa used a dope campain, "You Are what you use (dope)" and a lot of political and social views on that record ring fresh to this day. But, you're looking for something audiophillic ;)

Dig in.

[Andy]

Thanks for the info.:D

[pigmode]

Yeah, Overnight Sensation.

"The poodle bites..."

[Larry]

The AU-20 sounds very, very good to me. It is long out of print, but, all is not lost. Check out this link: http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/vinylvscds/index.html

[Dan]

A friend owns the AU-20 discs of "Apostrophe" and "One Size Fits All". They are both very good. The Zappa approved "FZ" versions are fine though.

[Dave B]

Larry thanks for the link! It's excellent. I think it's no surprise that I'm a fan. I Freaked Out in '68.
As for the Rykodisc Au20 20-bit gold discs. I have One Size Fits All and Apostophe'. The sound quality is very good but I don't know that the mastering is any different than the aluminium disc. I have most of the Ryko discs and most are very good with the exception of Cruising With Ruben And The Jets. The remix totally ruined this recording.

[Vivaldinization]

Allow me to step in for a sec:

Here's the rundown re. the Apostrophe CDs.

a) Almost all non-Gold CDs (this means the old two-fer, and the "current" CD) are not the LP mix; they're the old Quad mix folder down to two-track. Not that it's BAD or anything, just different.

b) The gold CD is the original LP mix, and sounds splendid.

c) The "almost" in A above is due to the fact that Ryko apparently used the gold master for some runs of the current CD (they might have switched back now, though).



The One Size Fits All situation isn't so complicated...while the same master-switch occured, both use the LP mix...the gold disc just sounds better.

And despite what Sckott says, there are *several* caveats to Zappa CD collecting (yep, another lettered list):

a) MANY of his albums are altered on CD in some form. Some of these aren't necessarily bad (Freak Out, which is the Zappa equivalent of Sell Out...it's been thoroughly remixed, but few people have a problem with it) to ridiculous (Man From Utopia, Ruben and the Jets). Know what you're buying before you do.

b) Many of his albums aren't purposefully altered, but Ryko wasn't necessarily provided with excellent masters for all of them. You Are What You Is and Tinseltown Rebellion sounded *awful* until about a year back, when they were silently upgraded. Sheik Yerbouti still sounds like crap, as do (IMO) Zoot Allures, Zappa In New York (bizarrely enough, none of the other Lather stuff sounds bad), Chunga's Revenge, and a few others.

-D

[Paul Chang]

Which mix was used to remaster the Japanese import CDs?

[Paul Chang]

Which mix was used to remaster the Japanese import CDs?

Sorry. Got caught for double-dribble. Didn't know how it happened? :confused:

[Dave B]

Paul, As best I can tell the Japanese remasters in the LP sleeves are the same as the standard Ryko issues. I was hoping for a replacement of Ruben and The Jets but it's the same Zappa remix.

[Vivaldinization]

Unfortunately, Gail Zappa seems to be holding up *any* progression of the Zappa catelogue, so don't expect things to improve anytime soon.

-D

[Larry]

I got this off of the link I posted earlier. I was working and did not have time to search for the information. I have the AU20 and the new silver disk sounds identical to the gold. I hope this helps.

There are two versions of the 1995 CD!

Ryko switched to using their Au20 masters for the regular CD issues of Apostrophe (') and One Size Fits All at some point. That means that NEWER copies of the regular 1995 CDs are actually the Au20 CDs, but without the gold coating!

The Au20 masters are just like the original vinyl masters, and they're different from the original CD masters. In the case of Apostrophe ('), the differences are quite noticeable (with songs edited and remixed), but in the case of One Size Fits All, the differences lie in sound quality only. In both cases, the Au20 master is simply a better master than the original CD master, whatever the reason.

Both the "original 1995" issue and the "1998-made-from-Au20-master" issue have identical artwork. The only way to tell the difference between the two is to open up the CD and view the manufacturing matrix number on the bottom rim of the disc, because Ryko used the SAME pressing plates for the new "1998" issues as they did for the Au20 discs.



Apostrophe (')

1995 CD
DISQUE AMERIC 818 PUMPKIN 0ESH3<910>RCD10519

Au20 CD
DADR 0RR32<910>RCD80519

"1998" CD
DADR 0RR32<910>RCD80519

One Size Fits All

1995 CD
DISQUE AMERIC 818 PUMPKIN ?????<910>RCD10521

Au20 CD
DADR 0SC81<910>RCD80521

"1998" CD
DADR 0SC81<910>RCD80521

[Uncle Al]

Zappa on CD is a nightmare.

Interesting (and logical) 2 fer's (Apostrophe and Overnight Sensation) were marred by ILLOGICAL re-recordings (We're Only in it for the Money/Lumpy Gravy). Incorrect mixes were used (Apostrophe used the quad mix). All of these were corrected nd re-issued - but only as single discs.

Uncle Meat was released in an expanded edition. Then it was re-released in the original lp mix......

Then FZ decided to release the tiles as he intended (Zoot Allues became the three CD set Lather), but several other titles also dissapeared only to be absorbed into that set (Live in NY, Sheik Yerboti). Then they were back again..

The Flo and Eddie years always seemed to be issued with the same crappy sounding masters...... except for that double CD of "previously unissued" material that included the Lennon Fillmore appearance, which contained almost a full disc of taped coversations......

Then there was a couple of years when FZ decided to "fomalize" his "fan club" (or whatever) lp's (Shut Up and play yer Guitar), which resulted in 3, 4, 5, ...9? volumes of stuff - both new and old .

When he finally released every bit of magnetic and digital tape he ever recorded - in several different versions, he then made dubs of audience bootlegs, and issued those.

I am not knocking his talent, but don't you think that his catalog, as extensive as it is, has been milked more than Elsie the Cow?

[Vivaldinization]

A few things:

Larry, much of what you quoted...incidentally, I wrote some of that...^_^ I contribute frequently to the Zappa patio (or did, when Johan had time to udpate more frequently).

Secondly, Uncle Al, to address a few things:

Interesting (and logical) 2 fer's (Apostrophe and Overnight Sensation) were marred by ILLOGICAL re-recordings (We're Only in it for the Money/Lumpy Gravy). Incorrect mixes were used (Apostrophe used the quad mix). All of these were corrected nd re-issued - but only as single discs.

Semi-true. The Money remix dates from the early eighties...when Zappa finally got his masters back from MCA, the master tapes were damaged *and* he decided he didn't like the original performances. If the Money remix were availible as an "alternate," I doubt anybody would have minded, but it was the *only* version availible from about '84 on. It doesn't help that the remix is also marred by a distinct carelessness...the fact that Ruben sounds so much better is frighteningly indicative of the fact that Zappa put more thought into the latter's remix.

Uncle Meat was released in an expanded edition. Then it was re-released in the original lp mix......

Not quite true. All CDs are essentially the vinyl mix, with a bit of annoying echo applied (presumably to cover up tape noise. This echo is also NOT constant...Cruising For Burgers is doused in echo/reverb, while Dog Breath is essentially untouched). The one big exception is Mr. Green Genes, which is arbitrarily remixed. The original vinyl mix of that has not been on CD. And nobody, *NOBODY* likes the bonus tracks on that release--hence, they're often referred to as the Uncle Meat Penalty Tracks...

Then FZ decided to release the tiles as he intended (Zoot Allues became the three CD set Lather), but several other titles also dissapeared only to be absorbed into that set (Live in NY, Sheik Yerboti). Then they were back again..

Again, not quite true. The Lather story is a doozy, but one thing's for sure: ZOot Allures (which is a particularly lousy CD transfer...nothing WRONG with it, per se, but it sounds lifeless and boxy...noticably so) has nothing to do with Lather. Lather was finally released in 1996, and essentially overlaps with Zappa In New York (which was remixed for CD, so the Lather editions are unique), Studio Tan (which is essentially totally availible on Lather), Sleep Dirt (which is an entirely different album on CD, so Lather once again has essential versions of those tracks) and Orchestral Favorites (some stuff shows up, some doesn't).

The Flo and Eddie years always seemed to be issued with the same crappy sounding masters...... except for that double CD of "previously unissued" material that included the Lennon Fillmore appearance, which contained almost a full disc of taped coversations......

Agreed, but most of this stuff NEVER sounded good.

Then there was a couple of years when FZ decided to "fomalize" his "fan club" (or whatever) lp's (Shut Up and play yer Guitar), which resulted in 3, 4, 5, ...9?volumes of stuff - both new and old .

SUAPYG was released first as a mail-order-only thing from Barfko, then finally commercially released. On CD currently, it exists as a normal part of his catelogue.

I am not knocking his talent, but don't you think that his catalog, as extensive as it is, has been milked more than Elsie the Cow?

Not at all. Let's look at this critically for a second. In their original releases, Zappa albums didn't tend to stay in print long; in extreme cases, we get the Lather offshoots, which were OOP from 1979 to 1990. Around 1984, we get the Old Masters boxed-sets, which "standardized" his catelogue into the versions we're now mostly familiar with through the CDs. On a very basic level, Zappa's stuff has only seen two CD issues: the "old batch" (a mix of Barking Pumpkin and Ryko in the states, with Zappa Records and others filling in overseas) and the "New batch" (almost all Ryko, with a few Barking Pumpkins). The Rhino Beat the Boots sets were issued once, with BTB2 being sadly out of print.

Zappa's catalogue has hardly been milked; indeed, most of the current dissatisfaction is due to the fact that masters are STILL being used that were constructed during his period-of-ill-judgement in the eighties. Ryko has no choice; it has to use what it's given, and those "Zappa Approve Masters" were approved well into Zappa's illness, where he presumably cared a bit less about his catelogue than before.

Even archival releases which would SEEM to repeat much of the same material (again, Lather) are still necessary, because of how much Zappa changed his catalogue for CD. And say what you will, but I don't think two-fers are the way to go with Zappa albums...I wish there were more bonus tracks on the CDs, as most of 'em *are* full price releases. That said, there are some Zappa CDs that are perfectly realized in their digital form (Absolutely Free, most of the 73-75 material).

-D

[Uncle Al]

Thank you David. You have shed some light on my confusion, but given FZ's extensive catalog, and the various versions, it is easy to become confused.

That said - the ONLY Zappa CD's I own are Money/Gravy, Absolotely Free, Playground Psychotics, and the Fillmore boot of the Flo and Eddie shows. I have (ALMOST) all of the vinyl he issued from Uncle Meat through Joe's Garage (Act 3). Use of the quad mixes wouldn't disturb me - because my vinyl of Apostrophe and Overnight Sensation are CD-4 discs. I knew what I was buying when I bought that boot - it was bargained price as well, so I have no problems there....

I think Money is a disater. Why in the world we he re-record the bass and drum tracks, especially using such a DYNAMIC drummer that just doesn't "jell" with the rest of the band? I used to have a link to a great interview with many of those involved with the re-recording (since lost). Apparently the ONLY one that wanted to do this was Zappa. Even the musicians thought it was a lousy idea.

I would love to replace several vinyl titles (Hot Rats, Fillmore 71, Chunga's Revenge, Bongo Fury, One Size, Roxy, Live in NY, Weasels) but I want the original mixes. Quite Frankly (unintened pun?), I just am not sure of what I will hear when I buy them.............

[Vivaldinization]

I think Money is a disater. Why in the world we he re-record the bass and drum tracks, especially using such a DYNAMIC drummer that just doesn't "jell" with the rest of the band?


Agreed. It's a combination of that and a few other things. Chad's a great drummer, but he has a very odd stylistic quirk, in that he loves to play along with melody lines. That, combined with the fact that he's using Drummer's Studio (essentially, digital drums) REALLY make his re-contribution stand out like a sore thumb. Additionally, Arthur's using a very 80's-sounding bass, which doesn't gel with the old instrumentation at all.

Thankfully, this issue was fixed for the recent CD.


I used to have a link to a great interview with many of those involved with the re-recording (since lost). Apparently the ONLY one that wanted to do this was Zappa. Even the musicians thought it was a lousy idea.

Yep. Arthur was horrified by the concept, IIRC...never seen Chad's response, I don't think. Doubtless, the original MOI (who, while credited on the Old Masters releases with "old instruments," were still somehow credited on the early CD reissues with stuff that wasn't them) were not happy with them.

Zappa Chad-ed tons of his catalogue, though...he just loved the concept of digital, direct-inject drums that he could toy around with. To him, it was the ultimate drum sound. My theory is that *most* of the overdubbage took place in one spurt, which would mean that the overdubs on You ARe What You Is (which became Thing-Fish), the Have I Offended material, Ruben, Man From Utopia, etc. happened largely in the same period.

I would love to replace several vinyl titles (Hot Rats, Fillmore 71, Chunga's Revenge, Bongo Fury, One Size, Roxy, Live in NY, Weasels) but I want the original mixes. Quite Frankly (unintened pun?), I just am not sure of what I will hear when I buy them.............

Of the titles you mentioned...
a) Hot Rats is a new CD remix, but isn't altered to nearly the same extent as Money...no new parts have been overdubbed, but the album is produced differently, sounding more like a "produced album" than the casual LP mix. (it's also much more compressed, as the dynamic range of the LP is much bigger than the CD) Some people like it more than the LP mix. In any case, I have a great copy of the LP mix on CD.

b) Fillmore is the same mix, but missing a track (Willie the Pimp Pt. 2).

c) Chunga's is a weird case...some tracks have been remixed, some haven't, and it suffers (to an extent) from some high-frequency oddness.

d) Bongo Fury is the same mix, but--like Zoot Allures--sounds uninspiring.

e) One Size is exactly the same as the LP, and the gold disc is fantastic.

f) Roxy is the same as the LP, and sounds great, except for Cheepnis, which has a different mix. Allegedly, older CDs (i.e. pre the current Ryko crop) have the original Cheepnis, but I don't own any.

g) Live in NY is a completely different album, almost...everything's been remixed, tons of excellent bonus tracks, and the version of Punky's Whips and Honey used is not the same as the rare vinyl incarnation. I personally find the remix odd (some odd frequencies going on with the digital verb), but perfectly handleable. Lather has lots of the original NY takes, in mostly their original mixes.

h) Weasels is, AFAIK, the original mix, but with some extra material (Didja Get Any Onya is longer) and with some slight digital reverb applied.

-D

[Paul C.]

Apostrophe is a classic, without doubt. Buying it on CD is an interesting exercise, because there is the option of the original LP mix being available on the AU-20 gold disc (pretty hard to find) or on some pressings of the silver version (also hard to find).

The differences between the AU-20 (ie LP) mix and the regular CD mix are quite noticeable, when it comes to Apostrophe. There are a couple of edits on a couple of tracks that distiguish to two versions, resulting in different track lengths, and a longer fadeout on Uncle Remus on the AU-20. The main difference to my ears is the general lack of reverb on Frank's voice throughout, especially on Cosmik Debris. Also, Excentrifugal Forz sounds very different on the AU20, a completely different mix from the regular CD. There are other differences here and there.

As to which one is better - well the different mixes are a matter of taste, and I happen to like the lack of reverb on the voice (although I think I like the newer CD remix of Excentrifugal Forz better). In terms of sound quality, I would give the thumbs up to the AU20 version over the regular CD. It's just smoother, with nicer bass, and generally more listenable.

As David notes, there is a theory that the regular CD remix is actually taken from the original Quad tapes. Perhaps that is true - on close listening in a couple of spots, I heard very slight tape distortion in a few spots on the regular silver CD which was absent on the AU20. Perhaps the Quad tape suffered a bit in the duping process. Who knows.

I have heard from a few sources that the switch to AU20 mix in the regular silver CD has been reversed, and that current pressings are now the original CD remix. Perhaps Ryko made a mistake, and then realised it. Perhaps they thought they might as well use the superior AU20 master, seeing as it was sitting around, but then the Zappa family trust told them to pull it (after all, didn't Frank himself determine which remix versions were to be released on CD)? Not long ago, I wrotie to Ryko about the AU20 switch, because I wanted to get one of the silver versions - A guy from Ryko wrote back to me to say that he had never heard of this phenomenon, but would keep an eye out for it - but he emphasised that one FZ-approved masters are used on their CDs. Either he was woefully uninformed about his own product, or he was playing dumb to cover up the issue.

The recent Japanese reissues in cardboard sleeve use the standard CD mixes. The version of Apostrophe in that series is exactly the same as the standard (ie.non-AU20) CD version.

BTW, the AU20 version of "One Size Fits All" is great, and sounds nicer than the standard CD version. There are negligible differences in the mix or content, that I can determine. The AU20 has nice bass and generally shows off the excellent production. The standard CD is still very good indeed. I only have the silver version of the AU20, which I chanced upon recently - it's definitely better sounding that the regular silver CD. I haven't seen any more AU20 versions of the silver disc anywhere I've looked.