I've got a few HDCD's in my collection and was wondering what the consensus on this technology is on this forum, particularly what Steve's thoughts on them are being the remastering/audio engineer he is. I know it's not your policy to comment on the work of other engineers, Steve, but HDCD is more of a generic topic, so if you care to comment I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts on HDCD's. I've got some HDCD's that sound great (mostly newer titles), and then, a few 70's titles that sound lousy (Roxy Music's "Country Life", "Siren"), that I thought would sound miraculously new from being HDCD remastered but it wasn't the case. So, is the HDCD's benefits mostly dependent on the original source material? Also, on a different subject, is the SH-remastered Suddenly 70's on the Westwood label? That's what's listed on the Deep Discount CD site, the 2-disc set (I just ordered it - I hope that's the one!). I went back about 30 pages on this forum and couldn't find the previous thread.
Really? I thought the Roxy remasters were all very good. I love the music and bought them all, and I was pretty pleased. Not as good as the LPs of course, but quite fine. I have no other Roxy CDs to compare with however. Regards, Geoff
There have been a TON of threads here regarding HDCD. Here are links to a few of them: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15096&highlight=hdcd http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7667&highlight=hdcd http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3914&highlight=hdcd Give the search feature here a try! It will be your friend...
Thanks for the links, vex. I'll definitely check'em out. I haven't been a real regular here until just recently so I know I've missed a lot of great info. Metralla, I don't know - I think the problem I have with the Roxy remasters must be the original recordings. I guess the HDCD remasters sound as good as what they had to work with - to me, they just sound okay, not great. But then, that stuff was recorded about 30 years ago. I originally heard "Country Life" on the prerecorded Atlantic/EG Records cassette I bought in '74, and the HDCD remaster certainly sounds better than that!
Re: Re: HDCD's geoff, the original polydor and eg roxy music cds kill the remasters. the sound much like the lps. in fact, the roxy remasters are as bad as the bowies.
Mr Pepper, Do you have an HDCD decoder on your CD player? Otherwise no benefits, indeed some have suggested that and encoded disc is not as compatible with a non-HDCD player as the manufacturers claim. John
Re: Re: HDCD's John, yes I have the Denon DCM-370 with HDCD-decoding. I think the HDCD's sound smoother or more "right" when decoded than when not decoded properly.
In response to Leppos statement The Roxy remasters is as bad as the Bowies I guess I just don't hear what others on this board are saying about those discs.To me I love The Virgin Bowie remasters-better than the Ryko's and they used the original uk masters (deeper bass) so for me it's more representative of the way he sounded back then.I can hear how some are saying The Avalon album sounded maxed out volume wise somewhat but only after I upgraded my equipment from Rotel cd/Adcom amps to the AH! Tjoeb cd player/Exposure 2010 amp that has much better transparency.To me those older cds sound too thin.At least with Roxy we get an SACD version of both the Hits and Avalon next month-I have no doubt they'll better the HDCD versions by a significant margin.
...with Roxy we get an SACD version of both the Hits and Avalon next month-I have no doubt they'll better the HDCD versions by a significant margin (tomd) I'm looking forward to those, too. I've got a Sony SACD player but only play it in 2-channel, presently, but those SACD's should definitely sound better than the HDCD's.
Just to point out those Roxy SACDs will not be comming out in the U.S. only Europe so don't expect them at Best Buy next month. Also-I can't believe the only Bowie album on SACD by now is Heathen.Yet we can get the "New" expanded version of Aladdin Sane complete with "rare unreleased" tracks that should have stayed unreleased.Anybody besides me who thinks the record labels have no one but themselves to blame for the bad times they're experiencing now?
yeah, but it's really not saying much to claim that they'll sound better than the HDCDs. that would be a small accomplishment. the original avalon and hits cds sound pretty close to their lp couterparts.
I'm with you. I think the Bowie Virgins and the Roxy remasters kill their predecessors. To me both are richer, warmer, more analog sounding - closer to the sound of my lps.
Re: Re: Re: HDCD's I'm in agreement with Geoff. I once told the story of the A/B/C/D audio test performed in the large high end room at Audio Ark in Edmonton with "Flesh And Blood" (and actually "Avalon" as well). 1. the mid 1980s U.S. Warner CD 2. the U.K. Virgin Roxy Music "The Late Years" box set CD circa 1990. 3. the 1999 24 bit HDCD remaster CD 4. a near mint copy of the LP from the 1980 EG/Polydor box set "The First 7 Albums" (and a near mint, U.K. LP pressing of "Avalon"). The test was performed on some very expensive equipment. The CD player was in the $15.000 price range with seperate transport. The turntable was around $10,000. Part 1 - Warner CD vs EG CD. Winner = EG was the clear winner. The Warner CD was dull, flat, sounded like it was mastered from probably a second generation tape. Do you think EG would be sending the U.S. a first generation master? Unlikely. Part 2 - EG CD vs HDCD remaster. Winner = HDCD by a landslide. No contest. Jaws were on the floor. Part 3 - HDCD remaster vs LP. Winner = LP. A narrow victory. The staff who were with me were very impressed with the HDCD remasters. BTW, they are all big fans of Steve. In fact, Audio Ark is where I learned about Steve. They sold me my first DCC CD, Joni Mitchell - Blue.
The Roxy Music HDCDs are quite different from the previous releases: MUCH *hotter*, gain wise. I recall seeing (here I think) some .wav images compared, where this was obvious visually as well. Might even have been ....here's the bad word...*compressed*. (I have an HDCD decoder in my system, btw) Still, while they subjectively seem like some of the loudest remasters I've heard for 70's stuff, they sound good (contrast to, say, *some* of the Japanese Yes 70's, which sound loud but *not good* to me). Elsewhere I have characterized the Roxy HDCDs as a 'wild ride', but I dont' mean that necessarily in a bad way. Maybe Virgin told Bob Ludwig to punch them up to the max. If so, he did a nice job.
Krab, I'd love to do some Roxy remixing. That would be one band that I could "tamper" with with guilt free glee...
Re: Re: Re: Re: HDCD's those HDCD remasters are much hotter and that's exactly why i personally don't prefer them. i'm not a fan of the late 90's ludwig mastering techniques. i'll take the 2nd generation flat cd on any system. just my opinion. it's funny to me when mastering comparisons are made on those $10,000 plus systems. seems like overkill? btw, yes steve a roxy catalog overhaul please!
All HDCDs seem hotter "gain wise" when you look at the waveforms. The HDCD process moves the digital data up (toward the MSB) in the digital word in order to leave rom for the HDCD decoder instructions. The decoding process includes 6 dB of attenuation (if I remember the # correctly).
LIke I said, I have an HDCD decoder; even with it engaged, the HDCD remasters are louder than the previous, non-HDCD ones. However you raise an excellent point. When I rip anHDCD track to hard drive using my CDRW drive, I'm lookign at the nondecoded waveform. Someone doing an HDCD recording has the option of using their 'Peak Extend' feature, which adds *up to* 6 dB of dynamic range beyond the 0 dB limit to the top end, which also tends to raise the overall average level. When decoded by an HDCD chip the *average RMS level* is lowered by 6 dB, in order to 'fit' the expanded DR back into the 0 dBfs digital limit. Pacific Microsonics was aware of psychouacoustics, and knew this would tend to make HDCDs sound subjectively worse than redbook standard, so they made is it a *requirement* in their licensing that players with HDCD chips use something called 'Gain Scaling" . If done *after* decoding (analog domain) the player must either 1) lower the gain of all nonHDCD CDs, and HDCDs without Peak Extend, by 6 dB or 2) raise the gain of Peak extended HDCDs by 6 db. Gain Scaling (gain matching) can be done either in digital or analog domains. If done in the digital domain, then *all* sources are lowered by 6 dB by the chip. The HDCD recording, if Peak Extend was used, actually is compressed, and then uncompressed upon decoding. So a nondecoded wavform would look compressed. Interestingly, then, if Peak Extended HDCD is played back on a NON HDCD player, what are you hearing from your speakers? Compressed audio that's probably going to sound louder -- there's no decoder to lower the overall signal in order to 'recover' the peaks. The more 'Peak Extending' used, the greater this effect will be. Pacific Microsonics puts the best spin possible on it: "The use of Peak Extend also raises the level of the rest of the program, which is a real sonic benefit even when using standard players or DACs (that are not equipped with an HDCD decoder). " This appears to be the root of the advertised claim that 'HDCD discs sound better even on nonHDCD players'. It's interesting how they try to have it both ways. They make sure that the decoders lower the level of Peak Extended HDCD to avoid clipping, which seems good audiophile practice, and is the basis of their claim that HDCDs on HDCD players sound best (increased dynamic range); yet they also claim that *leaving out* the decoding step, and thus compressing the dynamic range, still results in 'better' sound, simply by virtue of a psychoacoustic phenomenon...the same trick that many audiophiles mistrust in modern remasters. Pacific Micro/Microsoft does cover themselves to a degree, though: the recommend Peak Extend be used *only* on sources with relatively few , short duration peaks. How many rock records fit this description, I wonder? Interested parties shoudl study this technical paper at www.hdcd.com, and let me know if I've misunderstood it. http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/GainScale.pdf
