DVD-A and SACD on the cheap

[-=Rudy=-]

Since I apparently can't get both formats in something affordable (the Marantz I saw, a DV8300, was listed for $1099...NO WAY!), I'm looking for good options to get into one or both formats w/o spending a bundle. Given my history with disc players, I won't invest a lot since they live a short life around here. (Especially anything named Sony.)

I'd love a combination player and would have no problem with something like the Pioneer DV45A, but I can't get a definitive answer on whether or not it converts DSD to PCM. (I think it does.)

I'm sure there are some good bargains for both--the $200 range for each player might do the trick (or a combined $400-$450 for both). Not above buying used if I trust the seller. ;) (In fact, I prefer it, since this equipment loses value right out of the box.) But on at least one, I'd like to make sure it has good DVD video playback, since it will be my primary DVD source as well. Good bang for the buck in other words.

I've looked over some older threads, but this one can be the down and dirty, knock-down drag-out Rudy-the-cheapskate version. ;)

[sgraham]

Originally posted by Rudy@A&MCorner
...they live a short life around here. (Especially anything named Sony.)

I'd love a combination player and would have no problem with something like the Pioneer DV45A, but I can't get a definitive answer on whether or not it converts DSD to PCM. (I think it does.)

Rudy, is that Pioneer the one recently announced for under $300?

I don't know what it is with you and Sony. I have used lots of their gear, both at home and at work, and it has seemed more-than-usually reliable to me.

[-=Rudy=-]

No, the DV45A is an existing Pioneer Elite model. Wasn't aware of the other one--I didn't see a mention of it on their site. (Even after I specifically looked for it.) Saw in another thread that JVC had some DVD-A players in my price range.

The Sony thing has been ongoing--I can count more than a half dozen Sony purchases I've made that now sit here useless...all laser-based players. You can understand my frustration! Three Discman players, two boom boxes, an in-dash (still works, but barely), a home player (same...works when it wants to), a CD/LD player (repaired three times...dead again!!), and a pair of flaky MiniDisc players (one cuts out now and then, the other has a flaky loading door). Electronics, no problem...just the laser stuff.

[ratskrad]

I picked up a Pioneer DV-656A back in November for my DVD-A playback. It is also a progressive scan dvd player if you have a hdtv for playback. It can be gotten now for under $200. I don't really use the built in bass management as I set my speakers to large. My Yamaha RX-V1300 has a bypass mode to send the signals direct to the amp so no digital conversion is done when listening to DVD-A's. I do use the output levels built into the 656A to get the sound at least to my ears correct. I do know my kids are bummed as they thought they would be watching movies more on my setup instead of theres, but I do needs my music. For SACD I picked up a Sony SCD-CE775 for on the cheap as well. It is a 5 disc cd/sacd player only as I did not want another dvd player. These are getting real hard to find these days as they are now discoed. The CE775 has good playback in redbook and SACD. I use direct mode when listening to DSD, so no bass management there either. The only pain is moving the cables back and forth from player to player depending on what I want to listen to that night/day. So for under $400 I picked up both players and if more titles come out that I want I just might invest in some higher end units. I am more then happy with what I bought and even on these units I can tell a difference when listening to music. Now its time to go plug the 5.1 cables into the CE775 so I can listen to my just purchased Jorma Kaukonen's Blue Country Heart in DSD Multi-ch.

[AudioEnz]

Rudy,

you'll be seeing a lot happening over the next few months regarding multi-format players, with every man and his dog coming out with them, even at more affordable prices. If you can hold on for a couple of months, I don't think you'll regret it.

[Jason Brown]

I never got a definitive answer regarding the DV-45A either, but I saw something once at the audio asylum that had put it to bed for me at least. The question still flies around a lot, but one thing I do know is that SACDs did sound good on it when I had one. I can wholeheartedly recommend one if that's your price range.

Hell, I wish I still had mine. At least it played my SACDs without balking, like my current player does.

[Soundman]

I've recently picked up the Pioneer DV-656A (combo player).
I'm still navigating myself around this puppy but I've been quit suprised on how things sound so far.

Yesterday I finally spent some time listening through Fleetwood Mac's - Rumours (dvda) - WoW!

Today I will now experiment with the SACD of The Police (best of package) and Pink Floyds' DSOTM. (hope it's just as easy to accomplish a good overall sound).

I think this unit is great for getting your feet wet, without breaking the bank!

[SVL]

IMHO combo DVD-V/CD/SACD or DVD-A machines tend to be good DVD-V players, decent hi-rez players (SACD or DVD-A), and dismal CD players.

[michael w]

Originally posted by Rudy@A&MCorner
I'd love a combination player and would have no problem with something like the Pioneer DV45A, but I can't get a definitive answer on whether or not it converts DSD to PCM. (I think it does.)


Hi Rudy,

The US Elite DV-45A is from the same second generation universal player family as the 655/656 models.

These do not convert DSD to PCM.

From the Hi Fi News October 2002 review of the Pioneer DV-656A:

Each data stream is processed separately.
A Mitsubishi chipset handles DVD-V & A, DTS , progressive scan video output.
SACD data is isolated in the preceding DVD decoder chip and passed to a Sony DSD decoder.

The only thing in common is the path to the DACs.


The Marantz 8300 uses the earlier first generation Pioneer universal chassis from the DV-747A.

Hi Fi News says the Marantz is a bit of a turkey (echoed by the poor review in TAS), with the only real gains over the old Pioneer being some copper screws and a bigger power supply. IOW: poor value for money.


cheerio

[-=Rudy=-]

Hmmmm...so the DV-45A (and the DV-656A, for that matter) would output from the DSD D/A converter straight to the analog outputs? I wish Pioneer would clarify this on their own website. I have beeen avoiding this player for that reason, not sure if it converted DSD to PCM or not. (Previous threads here seemed to lead toward the assumption that it DID convert DSD to PCM...so I guess I'm still confused.)

Also, the DV-656A on their website does NOT mention SACD playback, and also makes no mention of a DV-655A. Is Pioneer's website that screwed up? Just curious. ;) They make a big deal about SACD with the Elite 45A, but nothing on the 656A.

My preference is an all-in-one, of course, but only if it does the proper conversions.

The price on the Marantz certainly didn't thrill me...now that I know it's a Pioneer under the hood, I'll avoid it. Nothing against Pioneer (I like the couple of Pioneer products I have), but paying a huge premium like that is totally unnecessary IMHO.

ONE FINAL QUESTION: is it possible on a DVD-A player to get 44.1/16 stereo at the digital output if playing a DVD-A high-res stereo disc? Only wondering because I could dump the signal into the computer and burn a standard CD to play everywhere else, rather than buy double of eveything.

[ratskrad]

In the USA the DV-656A is a dvd-a only, no sacd. Across the big pond the DV-656A-S is a different machine as it has sacd. It looks just like its colonial counterpart. Not that we are not confused enough already but Pioneer must not think we live in a world wide economy and that the internet has not been discovered by Al Gore just yet. To get the equivalent in the USA you have to move up to one of the Pioneer Elite units.

[Soundman]

Wow... I'm shocked that Pioneer offers this unit as a combo here in the U.K. and not in the U.S. - What's up with that???

Btw, (not to rub it in but..) SACD sounds pretty darn good on my DV-656A! :D

[-=Rudy=-]

Now jeez, doesn't THAT confuse the issue!! :confused: :sigh:

No problem moving up to an Elite for me. If it does its job properly, I'm cool with it. :cool:

Model numbers aside, though, didn't Pioneer just introduce a non-Elite "Everything" player here in the states recently?

[RetroSmith]

Another point is that I think too many people are hung up on this "Converting DSD to PCM" thing.

Many of the players that do this sound wonderful. Its all in the total design. The sound that comes out of the amp is what matters.

From what I've read in the Hi Fi Mags, most of the new combo players will convert DSD to PCM for SACD playback. As long as the player sounds up to par, I wont care how they process.

[Guy R]

Frankly I'm surprised that considering the length of time it has been out and with all the testimonials to how great the 45a is, that people are still wondering whether it is any good. And that DSD to PCM conversion thing is getting old and meaningless for those of us that have listened to this player over a period of time. I have had one now since around it's release date and it has never choked on one disc and all the 100 or so SACD and DVD-A titles I have all sound fantastic. Of course I always make sure that a title gets good reviews before I buy it. You can sit on the fence or you can go out and get one and enjoy it. Pop in a hi-rez disc and it plays the best stream available on the disc. Simplicity is a thing of beauty. I would buy it again for the $800 Canadian that I spent on it. It is worth every penny. Gone are my previous days of replacing players every 4 to 6 months. I will have this one for a long time. And by the way, the 3 Burr Brown D/A's do justice to CD's as well. It's the closest thing to perfect that I have owned in a player yet and I have had a lot of them.

[-=Rudy=-]

BUT...now I have more replies saying the 45A DOES convert DSD to PCM, and others saying it doesn't. And still others here saying DSD still sounds better than any PCM (even the 192kHz/24 bit)...something I'd rather hear in pure DSD form, not filtered thru PCM no matter how good it sounds.

*sigh*

No wonder I keep telling myself to stick to CDs and vinyl... :confused: :sigh:

[Guy R]

Well I have a few friends that have SACD standalone players and my 45a sounds every bit as good or better. They agree with this as well. Another 2 friends of mine have bought a 45a since listening to mine and they are very happy. I am very picky when it comes to sound quality. In fact I don't care how good the music is if it sounds bad. I don't want to listen to it. I had the same conflicting opinions (ie-DSD converting to PCM) when I was thinking of buying the 45a. Over the past 6 months I have come to the conclusion that what is important (as in any other component) is how it sounds to you and whether you are happy with it. I have listened to enough different players and different formats over my life to realize that this player is something special and is in a small group of universal players that satisfy.

Regarding PCM vs DSD. It depends on the way the mixing and the whole process is done. Universal Music is making wonderful SACD's. In fact they are much better than most Sony and Phillip's releases. On the other hand there are also fantastic sounding DVD-A discs. I like them both and I can play them both and when they are done well they sound fantastic and when they aren't done well they don't. A lot of people making these comments can only play one format or they have an inferior DVD-A player to compare the SACD to. There are a number of less than acceptable
DVD-A players out there. I know, I had at least one of them. You also must realize that a lot of people (including myself) now regard their current player as a short term solution. I may keep this one for upwards of a year which beats my previous record of 4 (or maybe 6) months. Things are improving all the time and what is good today will no doubt be surpassed (in price and quality) within days or weeks.

Anyway, while I like to spend time convincing people that they may not be getting the whole story from some sources, this also cuts into my listening time and I already have a universal player that I know is great so why do I care?

[RetroSmith]

Right On, Guy!!

If your player sounds good, thats all the matters. There are many people that buy on specs, not sound. Thats totally wrong in my book. Youre going to use the damn thing to listen, not read specs!!!

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by mikey5967
Another point is that I think too many people are hung up on this "Converting DSD to PCM" thing.

As long as the player sounds up to par, I wont care how they process.

But that's a big issue. In fact, that's the whole issue. There's really no use of having DSD if it just going to be downsampled to PCM. DSD sounds better than PCM, even the higher 24/192 rates, and I doubt if these things are even using good processing to do the bass management.

[-=Rudy=-]

Originally posted by yesman


But that's a big issue. In fact, that's the whole issue. There's really no use of having DSD if it just going to be downsampled to PCM. DSD sounds better than PCM, even the higher 24/192 rates, and I doubt if these things are even using good processing to do the bass management.

I'm hoping to bypass any of that "bass management" crap. :mad: 2-channel will be primarily what I listen to.

But that's my big issue too, Jamie--if DSD *IS* better than 24/192 PCM, I want to hear it for myself, and compare, or just hear it as intended. Maybe I won't hear the difference, and I'm sure the 45A sounds quite good (I'd still consider it as a DVD-Video/Audio player)...but still, it's turning out that nobody can tell me with absolute certainty if the 45A or any other player downconverts, or not. And the ones that SHOULD know--Pioneer--are probably more clueless than any of us are.

Frustrating.

[samuelowens]

FWIW, the Pioneer DV-655A (the Australian version) runs Burr-Brown PCM1738 and DSD1702 DACs (can't find any info on the DSD decoder used). These are listed on Texas Instruments site as having "OPTIONAL INTERFACE TO DSD DECODER FOR SACD PLAYBACK". I too have read many reports that Pioneer's player does NOT downconvert.

On the other hand, the forthcoming DV-563A will downcovert to cut costs...

Having said that, add me to the list of happy campers with Pioneer's cheap universal player. I can't really fault SACD playback and DVD-A performance is great too...

[michael w]

I wish Pioneer would standardise model specs !

The drawcard appears to be:

US DV-656A is DVD-V/A with progressive scan video but no SACD. Full universal playback and progressive scan video is only on the Elite DV-45A.

UK DV-656A does play SACD but has no progressive scan video.

Asia/Australia/NZ DV-655A appears to be the same as the Elite 45A.

Did I miss anything out ?


cheerio

[Guy R]

By the time you guys finish arguing there will be something else out anyway. I will probably have that "something else" and be enjoying it and you guys will still be arguing. You have to step up and take a chance. Buy it somewhere where you can return it if you don't like it. I give up.

[-=Rudy=-]

OK, let's keep our fingers crossed--I've just sent a message to Pioneer with my question about the downconverter issue. It's technical--let's just hope I don't get a 'desk jockey' who doesn't know the answer. :)

[Guy R]

I already tried this before and went through 5 techs before I got the answer that there is no "down" conversion done on the 45a.