Yoko Ono as a musician?

[Paul Chang]

In light of what happened in the "Creed" thread started by Edge_88, in accordance with Holy Zoo's plea, and out of respect for Douglas, who wrote an article on Yoko Ono the "musician", I am doing the trashing in a different thread.

Yoko Ono as a musician?:rolleyes: Good grief! This has got to be a joke! Don't get me started! She might not have been solely responsible for breaking up the Beatles, she has no business standing in front of a microphone, or a camera. (Remember what Paul McCartney called her?) She's got no talent whatsoever and her voice was,still is, and forever will be annoying, horrible, and horrifying. It is more enjoyable to listen to a raven croaking "nevermore".

Yoko Ono as a home wrecker? Yes, for helping break up John Lennon's first marriage to Cynthia, and for helping rob Julian of his father. Not that John had been a family man before he met Yoko.

Yoko Ono as a narc pusher? Yes, for helping John get hooked to opium in order to control him. Not that John did not want to get high.

Some people may think those things had nothing to do with music. I wonder what could have happened with John's music had he never met Yoko. Granted, they had nothing to do with Yoko's "music". (On a second thought, John might have helped her over the years, however difficult it might be.)

Yoko Ono as an artist? John Lennon certainly acquired a very unique taste in arts, and I am no John Lennon.

Yoko Ono as a musician? Oh NO! A noise maker? definitely, or if you prefer, a noise generator. According to the renowned American composer Aaron Copland, the four elements of music are rhythm, melody, harmony and tone color. But for John Winston Lennon, nobody would have had to suffer the torture by the noise made by "that ---- woman".

It may be hard to believe but my despite for Yoko Ono does not cloud my judgment on her (lack of) musicianship. Believe me, there are plenty of musicians who I despise but make great music, to my ears at least. My personal opinion, that's all.:D

[Uncle Al]

Yoko was a unique avant garde artist. She may not have a "conventional" musical talent, but she did have an artist's sense of a "sound collage".

Frank Zappa was a musician, and when he ventured into the "avant garde" (Lumpy Gravy) he couldn't even TOUCH John & Yoko's "Two Virgin's" (for those who have less patience - J&K's Revolution #9 - released uner the Beatles moniker, is a shorter example). Why do you think he invited them to the Mother's Fillmore East 1970's concert?

When her association with John elevated her into the "mainstream", the general public didn't understand her art. We were all confused. We didn't know WHERE this was all going.

Don't you MISS that?
Excitement?
Doubt?
Mystery??
Strangeness?

I hate Yoko bashing.

When you reach your middle ages and your life mate (emphasis: YOUR LIFE MATE) can zoom in on the (personal) flaws in your prior aquaintences (lovers or friends), and you SEE the TRUTH in his/her statements, you must follow your muse.

Yoko didn't break up the Beatles - she just pointed out the REASON the Beatles could no longer work togethe to John (I also believe Linda did the same with Paul). Whether or not you appreciate Yoko as an artist or not is a moot point - her art is intended to be outside of the mainstream, and only her association brought it to our consiousness.

I equate the entire John & Yoko story with musical excitement, on the par with Elvis Costello & the Brodsky Quartet. . While I cannot endorse their entire musical cannon - and I admit to blowing a few bucks on their releases - they never were predictable or boring.

And maybe that sense of risk taking (risk: remember Pat Boone doing heavy metal?) is what I miss the MOST about today's music scene.

[Claviusb]

Your thoughts transcend the subject.

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by Claviusb
Your thoughts transcend the subject.

I agree... well put.

I've never gotten the Yoko hating, but hey... whatever. :)

What I do think is true is that John loved her like noone else, that she inspired him and challenged him both intellectually and emotionally. And I think she made him happy.

For that, she has my respect.

[Chip Stylus]

I have several of Yoko's records. She, to me, is like Captain Beefheart or Tiny Tim, daniel johnson or a number of other eccentrics: Understood by a few, hated by many.
Some of her work had relevance, some did not. A lot of it is flat out hard to listen to. I agree with Lennon and his assistant Fred Seaman that the NY avant garde scene and the subsequent new wave pop movement would have been very different without her. Just listen to "Rock Lobster" if you don't believe me.

[AudioGirl]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo


I agree... well put.

I've never gotten the Yoko hating, but hey... whatever. :)

What I do think is true is that John loved her like noone else, that she inspired him and challenged him both intellectually and emotionally. And I think she made him happy.

For that, she has my respect.

Yep... I think John loved her... For me, that's pretty much the end of the story...

Whether she has musical talent, well... let that be decided by the number of records she sells. :(

If we love John, we have to let him love who/what makes him happy.

"All you need is Love... Love is all you need"

[Highway Star]

wha? two threads on Yoko. What is this stereo? I could retype what I wrote in the 'Douglas' thread, or youse could all go over there and read it and save some wear on my keyboard. Thanks;)

[AudioGirl]

Originally posted by telefunken
wha? two threads on Yoko. What is this stereo? I could retype what I wrote in the 'Douglas' thread, or youse could all go over there and read it and save some wear on my keyboard. Thanks;)

Here's a link... just click and you go right to Douglas' thread.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1575

Douglas wrote an esay... but telefunken's post is the third one should still come up on the first page if you are displaying 5 or more posts per page.

Just tryin' ta help out. :p

[Highway Star]

Thanks AudioGirl!

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by AudioGirl


Yep... I think John loved her... For me, that's pretty much the end of the story...

Whether she has musical talent, well... let that be decided by the number of records she sells. :(



I respectfully disagree. I can't say what John Lennon had in his mind, but I like to think of myself as an artist from time to time so I'll pretend for a moment that I can offer some insight.

I think that he saw a fresh "voice" in her art, and don't forget that he studied art himself. He not only saw a lover but a kindred spirit to inspire him too. More than just a muse (which all artists wish from their mates, I think). He also saw an artistic equal-- and whether we got it or not wasn't important to either of them... on a certain level (but more on that in a moment). He saw them as a couple who could work to propel themselves artistically into areas that would be verboten to the commercially focused Paul. As an artist he wanted to become less about mainstream interests and more about what he felt was really right for his voice. He looked at her as his new creative partner replacing Paul. For John Lennon, I think it was every bit about art as it was about love to be with Yoko.

So then comes the part that I said I'd get back to. As an artist he doesn't care what people think, but as a loving man he wants people to see her greatness as he does, and the more he pushes, the less some people can see it because he's also trying to hold on to his artistic integrety. The conciet of the artist is that he can creatively show her best attributes to a public that is as open-minded and accepting as he is. This didn't work for Paul either, though Linda was far more accessable.

Some people think she "wrecked" John Lennon and his music. Saying that John Lennon's music stopped being "good" once Yoko entered the picture is like saying Picasso stopped being a "real" artist the day he no longer painted realistically. We are simply seeing different artistic periods-- of course, you don't have to like it.

Like it or not, she has been able to inspire other musicians through her work. Whether she has "real" talent will always be debated, but she has moved people to very distinct polars-- that's what all artists aspire to. And in my mind, sales are no reflection of how talented a person is or not.

She is an aquired taste, that's for sure. Me, I can't say I get it all either.

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by telefunken
wha? two threads on Yoko. What is this stereo? I could retype what I wrote in the 'Douglas' thread, or youse could all go over there and read it and save some wear on my keyboard. Thanks;)

Wow! I took forever to write my reply, so I just read what you wrote over there. I liked what you wrote in Douglas' thread, telefunken. Why does your name always make me think about phone sex?

Good points too, thomoz!

[AudioGirl]

Clauviusb...

I am not sure where we were in disagreement :confused:

Didn't seem to me that you said anything that was in disagreement with my post... You just added (quite eloquently I might add) to what I had said (rather vaguely).

Thanks for elaborating... BEAUTIFULLY!!

You do seem to have an artist's insight. :)

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by AudioGirl
Clauviusb...

I am not sure where we were in disagreement :confused:

Didn't seem to me that you said anything that was in disagreement with my post... You just added (quite eloquently I might add) to what I had said (rather vaguely).

Thanks for elaborating... BEAUTIFULLY!!

You do seem to have an artist's insight. :)

Sorry! I guess I keyed on the this section: " Yep... I think John loved her... For me, that's pretty much the end of the story..." Which I read as "he loved her and that's all that matters." Simply a misinterpretation on my part. I'm sure I'll do it again!

:)

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by Uncle Al
Yoko was a unique avant garde artist. She may not have a "conventional" musical talent, but she did have an artist's sense of a "sound collage".

I could say the same about the croaking raven.


Frank Zappa was a musician, and when he ventured into the "avant garde" (Lumpy Gravy) he couldn't even TOUCH John & Yoko's "Two Virgin's" (for those who have less patience - J&K's Revolution #9 - released uner the Beatles moniker, is a shorter example). Why do you think he invited them to the Mother's Fillmore East 1970's concert?

Good question. I don't know. :confused: Maybe Frank Zappa just did that as a courtesy or John insisted to have Yoko tag along, sort of like a package deal. I will ask Zappa when I catch up with him. I will also ask him how he feels being compared to Yoko Ono.

I don't categorize music into "avant garde", "new wave", "conventional", etc. I use my ears, my heart and my brain to distinguish music from noise.


When her association with John elevated her into the "mainstream", the general public didn't understand her art. We were all confused. We didn't know WHERE this was all going.

You're right. She got elevated to mainstream status. She got elevated big time! Too bad that her music didn't, and she might have dragged his down a few notches.

I was not confused at all. I just didn't like the sounds she made, period. I didn't WANT to know "WHERE this was all going". I just wanted to save my hearing for more pleasant sounds.


Don't you MISS that?
Excitement?
Doubt?
Mystery??
Strangeness?

I've got plenty somewhere else.


I hate Yoko bashing.

Truth hurts. I believe Yoko will understand.:)


When you reach your middle ages and your life mate (emphasis: YOUR LIFE MATE) can zoom in on the (personal) flaws in your prior aquaintences (lovers or friends), and you SEE the TRUTH in his/her statements, you must follow your muse.

I won't let my muse wreck my marriage.


Yoko didn't break up the Beatles - she just pointed out the REASON the Beatles could no longer work togethe to John (I also believe Linda did the same with Paul). Whether or not you appreciate Yoko as an artist or not is a moot point - her art is intended to be outside of the mainstream, and only her association brought it to our consiousness.

I never said she broke up the Beatles. Paul or even George might have wanted out more, and Ringo probably thoguht differently. Yoko did accelerate the inevitable, e.g. by showing up at recording sessions. I sure don't want my male co-worker to bring his ugly wife to work everyday.

Many starving artists' works are "intended to be outside of the mainstream" as well. I am sure they won't mind getting "elevated" to "mainstream" status while staying outside of it. :confused:


I equate the entire John & Yoko story with musical excitement, on the par with Elvis Costello & the Brodsky Quartet. . While I cannot endorse their entire musical cannon - and I admit to blowing a few bucks on their releases - they never were predictable or boring.
I just wish Yoko could have found better use of her "talent".


And maybe that sense of risk taking (risk: remember Pat Boone doing heavy metal?) is what I miss the MOST about today's music scene.
I traded neither Enron nor Global Crossing stocks.

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo


I agree... well put.

I've never gotten the Yoko hating, but hey... whatever. :)

I don't hate Yoko. I just despise her.:mad:


What I do think is true is that John loved her like noone else, that she inspired him and challenged him both intellectually and emotionally. And I think she made him happy.

For that, she has my respect.

And chemically. They were lucky to go into rehab before ODing. She should have steered him away from the narcs.

For that, she will get no respect from me.:mad:

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by AudioGirl


Yep... I think John loved her... For me, that's pretty much the end of the story...

Whether she has musical talent, well... let that be decided by the number of records she sells. :(

If we love John, we have to let him love who/what makes him happy.

"All you need is Love... Love is all you need"

"What's love got to do with it?"

Okeh, okeh, let me give it a try. We love John. John loved Yoko. Yoko loves to generate noise. Then we have to let him love Yoko, who made him happy.:confused:

Wait a minute! I never got into NOT "letting him love who makes [made] him happy".

Okeh, okeh, I think I've got it! We love John. John loved Yoko. Yoko loves to generate noise. We have to let him love what would have made him happy, which is for us to love the noise made by Yoko.

Sorry John, I can't afford to love you anymore.:(

[Claviusb]

Originally posted by Paul Chang


Sorry John, I can't afford to love you anymore.:(

Ok Julian, you can stop calling yourself Paul Chang now! :D

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by Claviusb


Ok Julian, you can stop calling yourself Paul Chang now! :D

Who says I am Julian? I know who you really are Claviusb, the evil noise-generating ugly-looking b-tch who stole everything from the Lennon clan back in England. Quit making the horrifying noise! You scared the crap out of Sean!:mad:

[czeskleba]

Originally posted by Paul Chang
Yoko Ono as a home wrecker? Yes, for helping break up John Lennon's first marriage to Cynthia, and for helping rob Julian of his father. Not that John had been a family man before he met Yoko.
Yoko Ono as a narc pusher? Yes, for helping John get hooked to opium in order to control him. Not that John did not want to get high.


Regardless of what a person thinks of her musical talents, or lack thereof, it just seems silly to me to blame her for stuff like that. John Lennon is responsible for his own bad choices. I don't get the impression anyone ever forced John to do anything he didn't want to, especially in the realm of sex and drugs...

[mikenyc]

I always thought there was a racist subtext to all of the Yoko Hating...something unspoken, below the surface.

People forget that the early, McCartney vocal version of "Get Back" was a diatribe against the Pakistani's. There existed at that time in England, a huge public racist backlash against the Pakistani imigrant population, what with the Skinheads and Enoch Powell, was it ?

Though it only exists on bootlegs, I'm sure Sir Paul has some misgivings about that, and if it would be "offiically released". But as he's seemed to been given dispensation for that...
ahem...lapse. I'm sure it wouldn't help his well-manicured image or the Beatles' image.

[Gary]

Originally posted by mikenyc

I always thought there was a racist subtext to all of the Yoko Hating...something unspoken, below the surface.



Hmmm, interesting. I never thought of that angle. I just assumed that the Beatles fans were upset at the breakup and that their idols (John and Paul) got married (breaking hearts of girls all around the globe). Which made Linda and Yoko hated.

And when it was revealed that Yoko was sitting in on Beatles sessions, creating tensions in the group where she did not belong (she was not one of the Fab Four, right?), the "breaking up the Beatles" rap was pointed at her. I also believe that she was making decisions for John. Some later Lennon/McCartney tunes were really only written by either Lennon or McCartney - but she insisted that they were credited to both John and Paul.

Because of this bad publicity (whether true or not - this is just hear-say on my part), most people did not give Yoko's music a fair chance - they just condemmed it and (I presume) everything she tried to do.

Didn't Linda suffer the same fate with her photography, sort of?

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by czeskleba


Regardless of what a person thinks of her musical talents, or lack thereof, it just seems silly to me to blame her for stuff like that. John Lennon is responsible for his own bad choices. I don't get the impression anyone ever forced John to do anything he didn't want to, especially in the realm of sex and drugs...

Didn't I use the word "helping" in both the paragraphs you quoted? John Lennon WAS indeed responsible for everything he did. (I don't know why you used the present tense.) But it does not mean Yoko Ono had nothing to do with "helping" him! I repeat, "HELPING HIM"!

Yoko Ono went to John Lennon as a total package. Whatever we call her, "a muse", "an inspirer", "a lover who brought happiness", "a talentless noise maker", "a home wrecker", "a drug pusher", how is it possible to separate one type of her influence on him from another?

[Paul Chang]

Originally posted by mikenyc
I always thought there was a racist subtext to all of the Yoko Hating...something unspoken, below the surface.


Wow, here comes the "R" word. What's next, making Yoko bashing a "hate crime"?:eek: Thanks for your contribution in cheapening the usage of that word. It ought to be reserved for charges of more substance on more heinous acts. Try to be a little more creative than the "poor" woman I am attacking, would ya? What about "Onophobe" (-bic, -bia)?

Way too many people try to use the "R" word to silence the speech they don't agree with, when there is not even the slightest connection to race. You seem able to read others' minds when they say something you don't like to hear. It ain't working here.:p


Onophobe: Yoko is a talentless noise generator.

Thought police A: Yoko was born of Japanese parents. This Onophobe hates the noise she makes and doesn't appreciate her "talent" (singular).

Thought police B: He must hate all noise makers born of Japanese parents.

Thought police A: To make it simple, he hates all Japanese people. Therefore, he has commited a racist hate crime.

Thought police B: Let's arrest him. Wait, he doesn't look Caucasian to me!

Thought police A: I don't care. I say he hates all people of color therefore he is racist.

Thought police B: Wait, isn't white a color, too?:confused:

Thought police A: Quit it! This is an emotional issue. It's not supposed to make any logical sense!:rolleyes:

[czeskleba]

Originally posted by mikenyc
People forget that the early, McCartney vocal version of "Get Back" was a diatribe against the Pakistani's. There existed at that time in England, a huge public racist backlash against the Pakistani imigrant population, what with the Skinheads and Enoch Powell, was it ?


The supposedly "racist" version of "Get Back" was intended by McCartney as a satire on those type of racist attitudes, not as an expression of McCartney's own feelings. Kind of the same concept as "Taxman"... just because George sings it from the point of view of the taxman, that doesn't mean he agrees with the Taxman. Or it's like just about any Randy Newman song... Randy doesn't really hate short people or love LA, you know.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by czeskleba


The supposedly "racist" version of "Get Back" was intended by McCartney as a satire on those type of racist attitudes, not as an expression of McCartney's own feelings.

Well, it has been awhile since I dusted off my vinyl copy of "Sweet Apple Tracks", but as I remember it, "No Pakistani's" consisted of lyrics sung off the top of McCartney's head, almost "la-la-la" style that seemed to preclude any planned satrical comment. Sorry, but ascribing this track as "social commentary" seems revisionist. I also feel it was a miscue on Paul's part, and one he probably never thought anyone would hear.