Early stereo movies-directional dialogue

[Joel1963]

Just bought a two-DVD set for a mere $10 of The Fly, containing the original 1958 Fox movie and the 1986 remake with Jeff Goldblum. It intrigued me that the 1958 original was listed as being in 4.0 Surround and there is indeed stereo content. But the stereo is mostly dialogue and footsteps, depending on what side of the screen the actor is on. What do you think of this use of stereo for movies- is it distracting or does it add realism? The stereo was more noticeable on headphones than my speaker setup.
BTW, the original is great, didn't know before watching it took place in Montreal.

[Steve Hoffman]

That's a mono movie that someone mucked with. Heck, you could make and old Popeye Fleischer cartoon with stereo dialog as well, or The Wizard Of Oz; anything with a separate voice track. Pointless but someone must have thought it needed to be done.

[Joel1963]

That's a mono movie that someone mucked with. Heck, you could make and old Popeye Fleischer cartoon with stereo dialog as well, or The Wizard Of Oz; anything with a separate voice track. Pointless but someone must have thought it needed to be done.

It has been done with Popeye, now that you mention it. Good Times Entertainment put out four Popeye DVDs with stereo sound effects added at the time of the DVD's production. Yuck!

[Joel1963]

Also, 20th Century Fox's usual stereo mucking for mono movies on DVD is to reprocess the mono sound, either through reverb (apparently for Gentlemen's Agreement, as mentioned in Oatsdad's dvdmg.com's movie reviews) or broadening the mono to the sides.

[Ken_McAlinden]

The 1958 version of "The Fly" was produced in CinemaScope with stereophonic sound. I have not seen or heard the DVD so I cannot comment on the pros and cons of its audio tracks. From the description in the first post, that sounds like a straight re-purposing of a 1958 mix (i.e. wide stereo directional dialog and effects with only occasional single channel surround activity).

Watching a title at home that is mixed in this style, I would recommend moving your L/R speakers as close to the sides of the screen as is practical.

The Fox DVD of "Carousel" and the Criterion DVD of "Spartacus" have repurposed theatrical mixes like this, too.

Regards,

[Steve Hoffman]

The 1958 version of "The Fly" was produced in CinemaScope with stereophonic sound. I have not seen or heard the DVD so I cannot comment on the pros and cons of its audio tracks.

Regards,

Released in Mag? Not on my Fox list. You sure? Fox just didn't do directional dialog even in important films like THE ROBE. So, it's confusing.

[ROLO46]

Alan Blumlein devised true MS stereo for the cinema in the early 30's.
He also developed High Def electronic tv (405 lines mono)1936 and Radar for EMI 1942.
MS was not employed widely till the 80's......

[Joel1963]

Released in Mag? Not on my Fox list. You sure? Fox just didn't do directional dialog even in important films like THE ROBE. So, it's confusing.

Was it in stereo in the day? I know there's a surround mix, probably also 4.0, on the DVD, which I haven't yet bought.

[Steve Hoffman]

Ken says it was so he must know something I don't. In order for a film from that era to be in stereo it had to be on 35mm magnetic striped film, in other words, a roadshow type release. The Fly isn't on the list of Fox mag. My list could be wrong though but like I said, it's confusing.

[Ken_McAlinden]

Ken says it was so he must know something I don't. In order for a film from that era to be in stereo it had to be on 35mm magnetic striped film, in other words, a roadshow type release. The Fly isn't on the list of Fox mag. My list could be wrong though but like I said, it's confusing.In the interest of full disclosure, my sources are all second and third hand. I certainly never saw it projected with stereo sound, but there appears to at least be a vintage stereo mix out there whether prints got striped or not. The DVD is reported to have a multichannel "original" mix with wide directional dialog and effects and another 2.0 stereo track billed as a remix with the dialog centered.

The IMDB lists it as having four-track Westrex sound, but I think we can all agree that they are not necessarily the final word on such things.

Regards,

[Joel1963]

In light of Ken's submission above, I checked out the sound mix of other 1950s movies and came across Perspecta Stereo, a fake stereo process used for movies like Bing's Crosby's White Christmas, East of Eden and the 1954 re-release of Gone With the Wind. Just wondering, were these same sound mixes used for the respective DVDs of those movies?

Here's a Wikipedia item on Perspecta:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspecta

[Ken_McAlinden]

Criterion recreated the Perspecta mix for Kurosawa'a "The Hidden Fortress" as a Dolby Digital 3.0 track. Thankfully, they also included a 1.0 mono track as well. This is the only DVD title I personally own where they did this, but there may be others.

Regards,

[Joel1963]

Criterion recreated the Perspecta mix for Kurosawa'a "The Hidden Fortress" as a Dolby Digital 3.0 track. Thankfully, they also included a 1.0 mono track as well. This is the only DVD title I personally own where they did this, but there may be others.

Regards,

How's the sound?

[Ken_McAlinden]

How's the sound?Fine for what it is, but since it is not true stereo, it is not all that exciting beyond the occasional directional effect. After watching it with the 3.0 track once, I have stuck to the 1.0 track for subsequent viewings.

Regards,

[Derek Gee]

That's a mono movie that someone mucked with. Heck, you could make and old Popeye Fleischer cartoon with stereo dialog as well, or The Wizard Of Oz; anything with a separate voice track. Pointless but someone must have thought it needed to be done.

Actually, the "Wizard Of Oz" stereo music tracks I have sound very nice. IIRC, MGM recorded the orchestra with two different machines with two different microphone placements (as a backup?). Someone synced up the two recordings and added back the vocals, and presto - stereo mix.

Derek

[Steve Hoffman]

MGM recorded everything of a musical nature like that from the era, so did FOX, etc. After 1941, so did Columbia.

Point is, all the remixes I've heard of this stuff (except the few I've done a few myself) have been filtered and strained through modern gear so they mainly sound like sheet.

Sigh. Sorry, just don't like stuff like that.

[apileocole]

What do you think of this use of stereo for movies- is it distracting or does it add realism? The stereo was more noticeable on headphones than my speaker setup.
BTW, the original is great, didn't know before watching it took place in Montreal.

Keep in mind too that in some cases, the original widescreen presentations could have their screen / front speaker spread roughly in line; in those cases we may presume the panning seemed more effective than it would be in most home theater setups were side speakers may be quite a distance from the screen. In most home setups it's distracting if anything IMH. My preference though is to have the original respected, which is rare to say the least, as per Steve's comment:

Point is, all the remixes I've heard of this stuff (except the few I've done a few myself) have been filtered and strained through modern gear so they mainly sound like sheet.

Sigh. Sorry, just don't like stuff like that.

and I appreciate the candor Steve... it's absolutely agreed with here. In fact I seldom like the sound of vintage films on video; even the most vaunted resto usually strikes me as sounding little like it seems to me that it should (hard, tinny, bleached, etc). The picture is often highly commendable, but the sound wow... the attitude to any complaint seems to be "it's old."

Actually, the "Wizard Of Oz" stereo music tracks I have sound very nice. IIRC, MGM recorded the orchestra with two different machines with two different microphone placements (as a backup?). Someone synced up the two recordings and added back the vocals, and presto - stereo mix.

Derek, that's essentially correct, though the description sounds like you're inadvertently getting a thought crossed with the early stereo music studio system such as at Capitol.

Trying to explain in brief (I know, get dressed! nyuk nyuk ;) ), the movie studios often recorded music in a multi-track form, many since the '30s. They'd use multiple mics ("stems") recorded by multiple synchronized mono optical film recorders. These weren't backups, they were the work parts used in creating the soundtracks. The original reason wasn't to release in stereo or surround (although clearly this approach helped facilitate stereo and surround), it was to give them better control over the music sound tracks when it came to assembling the film's sound tracks to mono in postproduction. Where these "stems" survive, they may be used to create a multi-track mix in stereo, as has been done in a number of cases.

The results can be very interesting, even compelling, but so far all I've heard are so heavily processed that it's a real mixed bag. The first-generation optical sound elements seem to have surprisingly effective sound when reproduced "full-range." But it is a noisy media heard that way, so noisephobia kicks in and they really have at them.

[Steve Hoffman]

You have to remember that if you want to get that stereo sound on something from 1939 (I think I tried it on ROSE OF WASHINGTON SQUARE on a Jolson song) you are tripling the noise.

You have the "close miked" track. You have the "far miked" track. You have the singer's track. That's three noisy optically recorded tracks. Now, consider that you have to turn up the "far miked" track to double the volume to get the same level as the close miked track and you are in trouble, noise wise, already. Add the singer and you have a noise-fest. If the nitrates don't survive you only have a 15 ips tape copies of the three channels that have to be put in sync. So, in addition to the three channels of optical noise, you now have three additional hissy analog tape tracks. Yikes.

Back in 1939, the "Academy Roll Off" filter was in place and anything over like 8,000 cycles was filtered off on the answer prints. Your local movie theater had a big old Altec or something behind the screen and it would blast out that midrangy sound that bounced off the theater walls and sort of created a new top end to the sound.

My point being is that if a movie has an original "of the era" mix that is usable, it should be used! Nothing that we can create in our modern era will have the feel of the original soundtrack.

[Joel1963]

Just discovered something interesting, of a Perspecta nature. A good while ago, i bought the box set of five Pink Panther movies (The Pink Panther, A Shot in the Dark, The Pink Panther Strikes Again, Revenge of the Pink Panther and Trail of the Pink Panther). All are identified as being in 5.1 surround. I watched all five last week, and i didn't hear anything of a surround nature or much of a stereo nature when listening on speakers. The only things I heard were a car crash in the left speaker and stereo music for the Pink Panther theme in Strikes Again.

But then I listened to A Shot in the Dark on headphones. Big difference. Pretty much throughout the movie, there was directional dialog but in the Perspecta fake stereo way, with lots of panning, not like the true stereo of The Fly.

Was A Shot in the Dark released that way to theatres, or was it altered for DVD?

[Steve Hoffman]

A SHOT IN THE DARK was released with a mono soundtrack originally.

[Joel1963]

A SHOT IN THE DARK was released with a mono soundtrack originally.

Thanks. So fake stereo is back in a big way, it seems. I've also heard it on a Brigitte Bardot DVD of her 1960s TV specials which claims to be DTS but is really reprocessed, but not all that unpleasantly. The reprocessing is actually similar to that of the Elvis '68 Special DVD box set. There is also reprocessing on the Paramount Elvis Presley movies, at least on Blue Hawaii, which claims to be 5.1 as well.

[Steve Hoffman]

Well, one can make a stereo mix of old stuff pretty easy. Music tracks and fx/dialog tracks were separately recorded back in the day. If the separate tracks still exist, any fool can make a stereo mix. The levels usually suck though. No one knows how to do a good mix anymore..:)

[Ken_McAlinden]

Well, one can make a stereo mix of old stuff pretty easy. Music tracks and fx/dialog tracks were separately recorded back in the day. If the separate tracks still exist, any fool can make a stereo mix. The levels usually suck though. No one knows how to do a good mix anymore..:)Once in a while they get things pretty close to right, though. I think the 5.1 remixes done for the 2001 DVD releases of "A Clockwork Orange", "Barry Lyndon", "The Shining", and "Full Metal Jacket" were outstanding. They had magnetic three track source elements for dialog, music, and effects. They used the mag stems for the dialog and sound effects and then tracked down stereo sources for the music. Most importantly, someone with functioning ears seems to have carefuly referenced the original mixes to make sure levels were all in the ballpark. I do not envy whoever had the job of assembling the stereo music sources for "The Shining" as it sometimes consists of a hodge podge of edit pieces from multiple sources. It turned out very well, though, IMHO, sounding a lot like the original mix, but in stereo with less compression on the music.

It would have been nice if they could have given us the original mono mixes on the same discs, though...:sigh:

Regards,

[Steve Hoffman]

Most importantly, someone with functioning ears seems to have carefully referenced the original mix to make sure levels were all in the ballpark.

Regards,

That is of course, the key.

[Joel1963]

Once in a while they get things pretty close to right, though. I think the 5.1 remixes done for the 2001 DVD releases of "A Clockwork Orange", "Barry Lyndon", "The Shining", and "Full Metal Jacket" were outstanding. They had magnetic three track source elements for dialog, music, and effects. They used the mag stems for the dialog and sound effects and then tracked down stereo sources for the music. Most importantly, someone with functioning ears seems to have carefuly referenced the original mixes to make sure levels were all in the ballpark. I do not envy whoever had the job of assembling the stereo music sources for "The Shining" as it sometimes consists of a hodge podge of edit pieces from multiple sources. It turned out very well, though, IMHO, sounding a lot like the original mix, but in stereo with less compression on the music.

It would have been nice if they could have given us the original mono mixes on the same discs, though...:sigh:

Regards,

Another DVD which was pretty well done but still kind of jarring was The Spy Who Came In From the Cold, a 1965 B and W movie with Richard Burton. This was also designated as 5.1 surround. Anyway, I'm watching the movie with the expected tinny dialog, and all of a sudden I hear this beautiful lush music all around me. Very nice, but weird at the same time.